Is it true that Lon Horiuchi lives in fear for his life? (No Drift This Time Please!)

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I haven't done a search lately and I don't know if it pulled up the same man or simply some unfortunate with the same name. But several years after Ruby Ridge, there was a Lon Horiuchi living in Idaho. Probably not the same person as I doubt that FBI agent Horiuchi would not have taken steps to avoid being easily found.

I have a major problem with the tactics and equipment used by the US Marshals the day that either they shot Sammie Weaver's dog or Sammie Weaver and Kevin Harris shot at them. If I see uniformed police officers on my property, I will identify myself and ask how I can help. If they have an arrest warrant, I'm going with them peacefully. I have an attorney who can deal with such situations. If I see people dressed and equipped as ninja assassins then I will treat them as ninja assassins. My attorney can't help with ninja assassins.

Law enforcement agencies defend many tactics by stating the tactic in question has passed constitutional muster. I believe this is only one of the questions the agencies should be asking themselves. The law enforcement agencies also need to ask,"Is this a wise policy and procedure for us to use? And, if it is, is this policy and procedure being used wisely?" It is my belief that if law enforcement agencies added these two questions to their policy discussions, that drastic changes would be made in policy.

Many police tactics used today seemed to be developed by persons who wish to maximize distrust of the police by ordinary citizens
 
In a just world, Lon Horiuchi would not be living in fear for his life.


































He would be living safe & sound in solitary confinement as an example to be ridiculed and despised by all.
 
In today's world I would expect Mr. Horiuchi to be a rather well, paid high demand independent contractor with a rather large backlog of business. I can see tremendous demand for his professional skills by entities both governmental and commercial all over the planet. :scrutiny:
 
Byron Quick:
If I see uniformed police officers on my property, I will identify myself and ask how I can help. If they have an arrest warrant, I'm going with them peacefully. I have an attorney who can deal with such situations. If I see people dressed and equipped as ninja assassins then I will treat them as ninja assassins. My attorney can't help with ninja assassins.

How to Deal With A Ninja Attack: http://www.loservillex.com/ninja.html


ElTacoGrande:
Someone should post some newer pictures of one of our public servants.


"Only by insisting on accountability...can we constantly remind public servants that they are servants."
-David Brin
The Transparent Society
 
Don Gwinn, what you are seeing are not actions taken to maximize distrust of police, what you are seeing is the adversarial system ad absurdum, the police as against the public rather than as public servants. The objective is to subdue all resistance to the policymaker, either directly or by example to others.

It is the logical outcome of a free society operating under unjust laws. The people do not comply willingly because the laws were not made for their benefit. Logically, the manner of enforcement is also indifferent to the effect on the citizenry.

Remember, Randy Weaver's family was killed because the federal police beleived he had a shotgun that was 1/8th of an inch below the 18 inch limit. Note that they did not beleive he actually knew the shotgun was under length, a key element in this being a crime. Instead, they had him under secret surveillance for this terrible crime, which triggered a confrontation when the Weaver family encountered heavily armed intruders on their property. I think the injustice of such a law and the enforcement in Ruby Ridge is pretty obvious.
 
The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. “Good morning Mrs. Weaver,” Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. “We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?”

This Fred Lanceley bastard seems as bad as Horiuchi, if in fact he DID KNOW she had been killed. I won't give either of them the benefit of a doubt , though.

Theres a special place in hell for JBTs of that sort, even if justice never catches up to them in this life (which would be a disapointment)
 
Instead, they had him under secret surveillance for this terrible crime, which triggered a confrontation when the Weaver family encountered heavily armed intruders on their property.

Weaver was under surveillance for nearly a year and a half, including very-high-altitude photographs. The Feds had spent $3-million just on surveillance. My fading understanding is that the US Marshmallows were under orders not to be on the Weaver property on that fateful day. They took it upon themselves to trespass.

Here is more on Bo Gritz opinion of what Lon was up to.

Bo Gritz was sent up as a negotiator to earn Randy Weaver's trust and get him to come down. While he was up there, he was able to examine the wounds of Weaver and Kevin Harris. His opinion was that Weaver's wound looked more like that of a .223 cal, held by Lon's spotter, not the 7.62 cal that Lon's tradesmen prefered.

Bo hypothesizes thusly:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7186
Lon Horiuchi testified in Court that he practiced, hitting a quarter inch target at 200 meters (yards). I lay in Horiuchi's sniper nest beside a pine on a hillside 200 yards from, and overlooking the cabin. He fired from a prone supported position and almost anyone with training could have hit the target from that range with a 10-power telescope - yet he missed - by more than 10 inches!

Horiuchi testified under oath that he aimed his first shot at the base of Randall's skull for an instant kill. Weaver was standing stock still with his back directly facing Horiuchi, lifting up his right arm to unlatch the tiny shelter less than 200 yards away, but Horiuchi didn't fire the first round - number two DID (Lon's spotter)!

Horiuchi was zeroed in on Vicki Weaver, but she would have made a better target standing standing in the yard. The number two man aimed his M- 16 offhand with iron sights at Weaver's head, but typically (ask any vet) missed by the margin stated. When Weaver didn't fall and the family ran for the cabin, Horiuchi hit his quarter inch bulls eye target - as planned.

More from Bo on who shot Federal Marshmallow Degan:
The Media continues to report that Kevin Harris killed Marshal William Degan: THIS IS NOT TRUE! Kevin did in fact tell me through the cabin wall on the second day of negotiations that he shot Degan. When I asked him how he was certain, he said: "Well, he's dead and Sammy didn't do it." Degan, Roderick and Larry Cooper (armed with a 9mm silenced Colt sub-machine gun) were wearing camouflage and laying in prepared positions within a wooded area overlooking the trail at the "Y." Harris confirmed that he didn't actually "SEE" Degan, but he "...did fire one shot from a bolt action 30.06 rifle at a spot where smoke and expended shell casings were coming from."


During the Boise trial (July 1993), Gerry Spence proved from the trail of expended cartridges that William Degan, the most decorated Marshal in the U.S. Marshal Service's (USMS) 208 year history, ran in front of Larry Cooper trying to get a better shot at Kevin Harris. Not hearing the silenced Colt in the din of machine gun fire, Degen was killed. Cooper testified, "I aimed my weapon and pulled trigger. The target fell like sack of potatoes." Kevin was not hit and Degan died, albeit accidentally. The jury recognized this and completely exonerated Kevin Harris of an wrongdoing of any kind. He walked from the federal court a free man.

Rick
 
"These are your rules of engagement: If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed. If compromised by any dog, that dog can be taken out. Any subjects presenting a threat of death or grievous bodily harm, FBI rules of deadly force apply."
- p. 262, _Cold Zero: Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team_, by Special Agent Christopher Whitcomb. New York: Warner Books, 2001. (my transcript)

Dick Roberts, the HRT commander, requested and received these modified rules of deadly force from FBI headquarters before sending the initial sniper teams out at Ruby Ridge to establish surveillance of the Weaver "compound".

Also according to Whitcomb, Horiuchi (referred to in the book as "Hooch") stayed active on the HRT, though not as a sniper following various inquiries and hearings regarding Ruby Ridge. Again, my transcription from page 395 of the book cited above:
-------------------------------------
...in 1995... word came down that he was no longer a shooter.

"You can go and watch, if you want," they said, "but from now on, you're not allowed to carry a rifle." He still carried team leader status and responsibility for six other men, but he couldn't play with sharp objects. They might as well have cut his balls off.
-------------------------------------
I don't recall seeing anything else about "Hooch" in the book from that point on. Edited to add: the HRT deployment to Ruby Ridge started on August 21, 1992, upon hearing that the US Marshalls Service had been involved in a shooting there. It took until the next day to deploy on the site, Vicki Weaver was shot on August 22, 1992. (end edit)

Note that there was ongoing discussion at the time regarding the role of women in terrorism and their relative 'badness' compared to men. A series of interviews later resulted in the following book being published:
===================================================
_Shoot the Women First_ by Eileen Macdonald

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/06...002-8746165-3241623?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
===================================================

lpl/nc (who made a contribution to the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor's office when they attempted to bring Horiuchi to trial. I had heard of 'legal defense funds' being set up, I thought the prosecution needed the help in this case. Tried to get Cooper to boost the idea, far as I know he never did.)
 
lpl/nc (who made a contribution to the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor's office when they attempted to bring Horiuchi to trial. I had heard of 'legal defense funds' being set up, I thought the prosecution needed the help in this case. Tried to get Cooper to boost the idea, far as I know he never did.)

I like the idea

A legal offence fund to help bring out of control .gov thugs to justice.
 
Is the rumor true that Lon Horiuchi lives in constant fear for his life in a kind of protective custody on a military base?
If it is true, it is better than he deserves. The only military base that he should be living on is Ft. Leavenworth - home to Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary.:evil:
 
And let that be a lesson to all current and future wannabe government thugs.

Rick-out
 
I believe the line from Silverado "A fair impartial trial followed by a first class hangin'" should be Lon Horiuchi's fate.

That being said, none of us know exactly what happened there b/c the government feels the need to lie.

So, I would say, I hope that Lon Horiuchi fears for his life. I also hope he agonizes day in and day out about the fact he killed a woman holding a baby in cold blood. But, as much as I'd love to believe that, I don't.

Look at modern law enforcement. Look at Colt advertisements for the AR-15 in the 70s. Look at them today. Look at where "tacticool" came from. Look at where it's used.

Look at how many former soldiers (including SpecOps) leave the military and go to SWAT, HRT, and SRT in various LE agencies. It's easier. You don't spend months away, fearfull for your life in a 3rd world "stani" country. And you get to come home to your wife, significant other etc. BUT you still get to break down doors, grab people, and possibly even shoot someone down.

Horiuchi was the tip of the iceberg. Cops no longer being police officers, but instead an occupying army.

Lon Horiuchi is one of those cops who isn't a peace officer anymore, but is a soldier. Hopefully, he'll never sit behind a rifle ever again, ready to kill some innocent woman in rural America.
 
I can't find the quote, but Col. Jeff Cooper periodically takes note that Lon Horiuchi remains alive and at large.

He has a lot to say on the subject..

The Federal agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face, deliberately, while she was unarmed and holding her child is named Lon Horiuchi. Remember that name. He is still walking around loose. That man must eventually pay for his crime, here or hereafter. Lon Horiuchi.


So now it appears that Horiuchi will walk free. The opinion of the judge was that he was "only following instructions." Several German generals were condemned to death at the Nuremburg Trials for advancing just that argument. Lon Horiuchi was either seriously incompetent in the handling of his weapon, in which case the FBI is to blame for putting him on that job; or he was callously indifferent to the deliberate taking of human life, in which case he is guilty of negligent homicide. This is, of course, assuming that what has appeared in the press is reasonably in accordance with the facts. (It may be that a great deal of material was presented at the trial which is not clear to the general public.) So here we have, in reasonably close succession, O.J. Simpson and Lon Horiuchi, reflections of a justice system which is catastrophically askew. It must be admitted in fairness that Simpson's act was committed with malice, whereas there is no evidence that Horiuchi entertained any particular hatred for Vicki Weaver. But both men walk free. The ancient Greeks had an answer to that. Its name was nemesis.


We note with some annoyance that the usually sound columnist, Joseph Sobran, has come out sympathizing for Lon Horiuchi on the grounds that Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver "by mistake." Horiuchi says he did, Rogers says he did, Freeh says he did, Janet Reno says he did, and now Joe Sobran says he did. Let us get it straight. The only way Horiuchi could have shot Vicky Weaver by mistake would have been a circumstance in which she was standing behind an obscuring device, such as a sheet of plywood, or for that matter a bed sheet. Unless Horiuchi was an utter fool and totally incompetent with his weapon, and firing at random at the house, he could not have shot Vicky Weaver by mistake. How all those people could give credence to such a story is absolutely beyond belief!


Senator Larry Craig has taken cudgel and addressed the Attorney General a specific and public letter questioning the need for official American stormtroops. I do not see how she can avoid answering this. It will be very interesting to see what she says.
As of right now, there is a rumor to the effect that federal marshals may arrest Lon Horiuchi and deliver him to the State of Idaho. Perhaps this is only a rumor, but it certainly is a good one.

(If I keep writing this sort of thing, I guess I can expect the ninja any quiet morning about 0300.)

To the best of my knowledge and belief, Lon Horiuchi, the man who shot Vickie Weaver in the face with a
sniper rifle while she was holding her baby in her arms, is still walking around loose. If I am wrong in this
assumption, please let me know.


When one raises the issue of the free status of Lon Horiuchi, the murderer of Vickie Weaver, the surprisingly
common answer is, "Nothing can be done to him because he is a federal agent!" So now, in their own eyes,
federal agents are above the law. Several periodicals have pointed out recently that we are on our way to a
police state. From this point it appears we have already arrived.

Freshly back from Africa and from our stay in the meat locker, we discover that Janet Reno is still on the
payroll, and Lon Horiuchi is still wandering around loose. Someone should have taken care of that in our
absence.

We learn that the federal assassin Lon Horiuchi is now being afforded personal security by the state. Perhaps
the need for this man to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life is in some measure adequate punishment

This from an FBI agent who must obviously remain anonymous:
"I wasn't surprised when I heard that Horiuchi had killed Mrs. Weaver. We were in the same
class at Quantico. The man was a robot. He would do anything to please his superiors."
Well, Horiuchi is still at large. One wonders how much he pleased his superiors.

In our concentration on Lon Horiuchi, the man who shot Vicky Weaver in the face while she was holding her
baby, we must not forget that he was not the only one involved. One Richard Rogers, of the FBI hostage
rescue organization, is the man who set the rules of engagement both at the Randy Weaver ranch and at Waco.
As far as I can determine, he is the man who gave the orders that Horiuchi carried out. Richard Rogers − this
is a name to bear in mind.

For the FBI to investigate Horiuchi is somewhat like Hitler's investigating Himmler.
But no matter what Reno and Freeh and Rogers and Horiuchi may say, that case is not closed. Whether
Horiuchi committed a procedural error at Ruby Ridge is not important. What he committed was a mortal
and that sin will find him out. The only appropriate demise for this man now would seem to be the traditional
route of sepukku, with which he should be familiar. If he needs a proper knife I have one, which I will provide
to him upon request.

There are people who do not mind the fact that O.J. Simpson walks free. There are people who do not mind
the fact that Lon Horiuchi is not only not punished for his atrocity at Ruby Ridge, but he continues on the
public payroll. There are those who know who killed Vince Foster, but are not bothered by the fact that the
subject has been dropped officially. I mind those things. Do you?


In keeping track of special agent Lon Horiuchi, we note that the television people are understandably reluctant
to show his face. After killing Vicki Weaver with one round to the face up at Ruby Ridge, he was put in
charge of a sniper team which went on down to Waco. Just what a sniper team might be good for in that
action is not clear, but Horiuchi has maintained that his team never fired a shot at that time. Recently released
television coverage of that action shows four empty cartridge cases on the ground at the sniper post occupied
by Horiuchi and his team. Apparently, someone else came in after the battle and dropped the four empties at
the spot where Horiuchi was located. If he says no shots were fired, I guess no shots were fired. After all,
Agent Horiuchi is a West Point graduate, and we can trust him implicitly.


We now learn that a series of courts has fully absolved Lon Horiuchi of the murder of Vicki Weaver, on the
grounds that he was "only doing his job." A number of German war criminals offered that argument at the
Nürnberg trials, but they were hanged anyway.
So now Horiuchi walks free under no legal cloud. One wonders how carefully he watches his back.


It is a long time now since Lon Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver in the face while she was holding her child in her arms, but that is something most people would like to forget. Horiuchi still walks free with that on his conscience. The law cannot reach him, but there are many who do not forget.

Constitutional Traitor and Commissioner of the NOPD Edward Compass resigns.

He's been ducking and weaving ever since the S HTF in NOLA.

My bet is that he's hoping we'll forget all about him.

I think not. I think his name will be remembered, right alongside Lon Horiuchi.

Worse, even.

Despite the best efforts of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, we now
have access to a photograph of Lon Horiuchi, who shot Vickie Weaver in the
face but who still has not been brought to justice. Col. Bob Brown ran it
down in a West Point yearbook and it appears on page 38 of the December
issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine. It is not very clear, and it is
twenty years old, but it is better than nothing.

Despite the venerable injunction, you can get away with murder. Consider O.J. Simpson. Consider Lon
Horiuchi. And consider those experts who did away with Vince Foster. Of course it may be that those last did
not get away with it, having been taken care of Mafia style by those in charge. But in that case those in charge
are presumably walking free − and probably in pretty high places in both Arkansas and Washington.


There are people in positions of importance today who know how Vince Foster was murdered, and who did it,
but apparently we have decided to drop that subject. And then, of course, there is Lon Horiuchi. I suppose he
has squared the matter with his conscience, but I am darned if I know how.


The presumably authentic word we get in Washington is that Horiuchi will walk free, but that the BATF is being stalked and may be torpedoed. Well, as we have mentioned before, the murderer of Nicole Simpson and the murderer of Vince Foster are walking free. We should not expect too much of our current system of jurisprudence.


We have an interesting philosophical problem here. We know how the hunter uses a rifle (though he often uses it very poorly), but what exactly does a policeman need with a rifle? The only scenario that comes to mind is that of hostage rescue, since the rifle is not a defensive weapon and the police should use it only to save the life of an innocent being held at gun point. The totally egregious use of the rifle by the law enforcement arm looms as that of Lon Horiuchi, who appears to have murdered Vicki Weaver in cold blood when he himself was in no danger, and who now walks free and draws his salary on the taxpayers.
 
beerslurpy said:
Wait a second, the one police fatality that kicked this whole thing off was a friendly fire?

AZRickD said:
That is the speculation.

Not the only time a possible Federal blue-on-blue or shooting error kicked off the killing of suspects either. I seem to recall that the first shot at Waco was reputed to be an AD from an assault team member, and those guys on the roof/window entry team may have been "own goals" as well.
 
I also hope he agonizes day in and day out about the fact he killed a woman holding a baby in cold blood.
Not a chance.

If he had no qualms about shooting Vicki in the face, it stands to reason he would not feel agony or guilt over it.

Also... the fact that Lon Horiuchi is a murderer should not be an issue. Hundreds of people are murdered every day in this country. There are two issues of vital concern:

1 Someone presumably ordered him to do it. (Richard Rogers?)
2. Government agents are free to commit murder.
 
Well, reliving the abuses of fed.gov during the 1990s has been cathartic for me... :banghead:


And a deep, cleansing breath...

in...

out...

in...

out...

Rick
 
Last I heard, (late 99, early 2000) The Butcher of Ruby Ridge had been moved to hostage negotiations and still had a protective detail on his family and possibly himself. It's possible he has pulled the pin and retired.I know I wouldn't want him as a neighbor.
 
One small part of this that annoys me is that this guy, due to his retired LEO status, is allowed to CCW here in California, and I, a CA resident, am not allowed to because of the wonderfully corrupt sheriff in my county.

Also in the irony department, OJ is still allowed to own guns, but Martha Stewart is not.
 
Was he given a new I.D. due to fear of retribution?

OR....

Is he "working" overseas in some jungle/desert outpost for No Such Agency??
 
If he was following orders to "take out the woman" first, or even if he made a mistake, he would not be a very well trained sniper if he continued to lose sleep over it indefinitely.
 
Boy, this is some ugly, ugly stuff. I won't repeat them, but the thread of thought that equates modern law enforcement with occupying military force gives pause. That attitude could well explain the not-infrequent incidents around the US of bad shoots by LEOs who are ultimately exonerated (or at least escape punishment) like Hooch. :uhoh:

TC
 
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