Is Lee Alox lube good enough for .357 mag loads?

[RealGun]

They do give you the rating. If you are familiar with casting you know the Brinell Hardness index provides the BHN number. The BHN number tells you the breech pressure PSI rating of your cast bullet. Any one who cast bullets should own a BHN tester.

http://www.engineersedge.com/hardness_conversion.htm

I am familiar with hardness numbers but see no mechanism to translate that into pressure numbers. If it is an abstraction to stress pressure ratings, I don't find it very helpful. I can more readily relate hardness to a range of practical velocity or simply the absence or constraints of load data for lead bullets, data which may not mention any pressure ratings.

 

[Dog Soldier]

It is difficult for you to understand the properties of metal alloys. If you are comfortable with common velocity then work with that. Good luck.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorBulletWeakEnough.htm

 

[RealGun]

It is difficult for you to understand the properties of metal alloys. If you are comfortable with common velocity then work with that. Good luck.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorBulletWeakEnough.htm

And it seems difficult for you to address a question directly. We'll keep trying.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Humm? Did you study the link?

 

[RealGun]

Humm? Did you study the link?

Recommended velocity limits and hardness are the universal specs, and you seem to refuse to use them, hung up on this pressure meme. Few have the equipment to measure pressure, and bullets for sale can only suggest what pressure range would be suitable. Pressure is not inherent in the bullet. Velocity is a guideline for a given hardness.

 

[Dog Soldier]

OK, Lets move on. What ever works for you is a success. You can not hope for more. The best of luck to you.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Well I took it out yesterday and tried some handloads with the Alox/45-45-10 lube.

I fired 60 rounds with various mild to medium loads and had very minimal leading. Very light traces only. Nothing to effect accuracy at all.

I am very happy with it. I did lube some up, let it dry and lube them again with a thicker coat that I am going to use to try and work up some full throttle loads. We'll see how that works but I'm very pleased so far.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Thanks for your up date Arky Paul. What is your bullet diameter to your throat diameter? Where is most of the gas cutting at? Do you use a gas check? What is the BHN of your alloy?
I am interested in details regarding cast bullets. I have been casting for over 50 years. I continue to discover how little I know.

 

[RealGun]

Well I took it out yesterday and tried some handloads with the Alox/45-45-10 lube.

I fired 60 rounds with various mild to medium loads and had very minimal leading. Very light traces only. Nothing to effect accuracy at all.

I am very happy with it. I did lube some up, let it dry and lube them again with a thicker coat that I am going to use to try and work up some full throttle loads. We'll see how that works but I'm very pleased so far.

You did move the goal posts a bit but are still pursuing the original premise:

My question is, is that good enough for full throttle .357 mag loads?

I just wanted to comment that gas checks are not about barrel friction melting or galling the bullet. I believe it is about the fire behind the bullet.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Thanks for your up date Arky Paul. What is your bullet diameter to your throat diameter? Where is most of the gas cutting at? Do you use a gas check? What is the BHN of your alloy?
I am interested in details regarding cast bullets. I have been casting for over 50 years. I continue to discover how little I know.

I have not measured my cylinder throats. I know that causes a lot of problems if they are too small.
I am fortunate and got a mold that drops bullets at 0.3585 so I don't even need to size them.

I did not use gas checks as I only have the one mold.

I am using clip on wheel weights, which the BHN is generally around the 11-12 mark. I think I will try water quenching them in the future to get the hardness up a bit. I think bullet hardness is overrated sometimes but when I try to push them at higher velocities (1,300-1,400 fps) it will help.

There does not seem to be any gas cutting.
The traces of lead are very light streaks between the riflings. It is very minor.

I will try to get some pics before I clean it.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I just wanted to comment that gas checks are not about barrel friction melting or galling the bullet. I believe it is about the fire behind the bullet.

I realize you are a fan of gas checks but I would really like to go without the extra expense/step.

I will say, I would like to get a lever action carbine in the same caliber to go with it, and when I do I will likely have to give the gas checked bullets more consideration.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Arky Paul, Thanks. I agree on not sizing and tumble lubing. Hardness of the alloy has little to do with gas cutting/leading of the barrel. It is all about dimensions. Gas cutting is related to under sized bullets. Gas checks are a waste of money in most handgun loads. The bullet must exceed 1,500 fps before a GC is of any value.
In the rifle barrel the bullet base is exposed to the hot gas for a longer time. Gas checks and bullet lube can seal and retard gas cutting. Best of luck Paul.

 

[RealGun]

I realize you are a fan of gas checks but I would really like to go without the extra expense/step.

I will say, I would like to get a lever action carbine in the same caliber to go with it, and when I do I will likely have to give the gas checked bullets more consideration.

Let's wait and see what your take on it is after you fire the full tilt loads.

 

[RealGun]

Arky Paul, Thanks. I agree on not sizing and tumble lubing. Hardness of the alloy has little to do with gas cutting/leading of the barrel. It is all about dimensions. Gas cutting is related to under sized bullets. Gas checks are a waste of money in most handgun loads. The bullet must exceed 1,500 fps before a GC is of any value.
In the rifle barrel the bullet base is exposed to the hot gas for a longer time. Gas checks and bullet lube can seal and retard gas cutting. Best of luck Paul.

That is inconsistent with load data, which clearly indicate harder alloys for higher performance loads. Lyman is probably the best example I can think of. You can observe where they bump up from #2 to Linotype, for example.

 

[Scooter22]

Just as a comparison. I,ve only used LLA on their 150 grn FP, GC boolit. (.309") in my 30-30s. 1 Stevens 325, 2 Marlin Micro grooves and 2 Win M94,s (1928, 1988). Using old wheel weights heat treated. Push them 1600 with no GC and 1800 with. No problems with any and same accuracy as full power jacketed.. Never any leading.

 

[MEHavey]

Gas checks cause no harm
ALOX is as good as ANYthing for high velocity bullets (1,800 - 2,000)
Gas checks are recommended once you hit ~1350+

But as far as sizing goes -- forget anything but really soft/moderate speeds if the Cylinder Throats aren't at least as big as the groove diameter

 

[Arkansas Paul]

That is inconsistent with load data, which clearly indicate harder alloys for higher performance loads. Lyman is probably the best example I can think of. You can observe where they bump up from #2 to Linotype, for example.

It is not inconsistent with real world results.
Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum using bullets with a BHN of 11. And they weren't gas checked.

I'm not saying that bullet hardness never matters. It certainly can cause leading if the hardness is incorrect for a specific application. I'm just saying a bullet that is properly sized is more important most of the time.
Getting leading from improper hardness can go both ways. A bullet that is too hard can cause just as much leading as one that is too soft under certain conditions, such as the bullet being undersized or cylinder throats being too small.

I realize that Lyman recommends gas checks for a lot of things. Coincidentally they also sell gas checks.

 

[BLU]

Arkansas Paul... I use Lee Alox exclusively and never use gas checks with .357 Mag. Never had problems... yet.

Explain a little of this to me though, I've never heard of using Paste Wax.

Arkansas Paul: Will give it a try with the Lee Alox. I do mix it with Johnson's Paste Wax and a bit of mineral spirits and it works well with the other calibers I cast.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Arkansas Paul... I use Lee Alox exclusively and never use gas checks with .357 Mag. Never had problems... yet.

Explain a little of this to me though, I've never heard of using Paste Wax.

Arkansas Paul: Will give it a try with the Lee Alox. I do mix it with Johnson's Paste Wax and a bit of mineral spirits and it works well with the other calibers I cast.

Yeah, its a mixture I found out about over at the castboolits site.
It is merely 45% Lee Alox, 45% Johnson's Paste wax and 10% mineral spirits.

It dries better without being sticky. Seems to work so far.
According to the data ( I haven't ran them through a chrono), which are admittedly on the optimistic side, some of my loads exceeded 1200 fps with minimal leading. A few swipes with the copper brush took them right out. I didn't even have to break out the chore boy.

 

[BLU]

Gr8! I'm going to have to try that, thanks. Yup... Lee lube is definitely sticky.

 

[Dog Soldier]

RealGun, Would you explain the relation of BHN to dimensional variance and the relevance of gas cutting? What does a high BHN have to do with my post? Would you stay with us regarding the causes of leading? Thanks.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Arky Paul, I really liked your post #42. Keith knew as bullet casters know today. Gas checks are only needed above 1,500 fps. Lyman's gas checks adds six cents or more to every bullet. Keith shot salvaged Linotype with a BHN of 22 sized to his S&W .44 HE 4". He was aware that the loads in a 4" did not hit 1,500 fps.

 

[RealGun]

It is not inconsistent with real world results.
Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum using bullets with a BHN of 11. And they weren't gas checked.

I'm not saying that bullet hardness never matters. It certainly can cause leading if the hardness is incorrect for a specific application. I'm just saying a bullet that is properly sized is more important most of the time.
Getting leading from improper hardness can go both ways. A bullet that is too hard can cause just as much leading as one that is too soft under certain conditions, such as the bullet being undersized or cylinder throats being too small.

I realize that Lyman recommends gas checks for a lot of things. Coincidentally they also sell gas checks.

I was not referring to gas checks. I responded to the statement that hardness was not a factor.

I think it is too cynical to suggest that Lyman is biased toward sale of gas checks, which they reportedly get from Hornady just to have some in their line of casting items.

As far as being consistent, we pick our authorities. I rely more on load manuals than a cast boolit alternate universe, with all due respect. I read a lot about the belief that solving leading is just a matter of throwing an oversized blob of soft lead at a significantly smaller forcing cone...that guns meant for standard jacketed sizes have to be modified to bring Mohammed to the mountain of using cast bullets as a cost savings...that home cast bullets in use are not only larger than commercial cast bullets but of a size requiring a custom mould.

 

[RealGun]

RealGun, Would you explain the relation of BHN to dimensional variance and the relevance of gas cutting? What does a high BHN have to do with my post? Would you stay with us regarding the causes of leading? Thanks.

You should be focused on explaining your statement, not redirecting to me.

Hardness of the alloy has little to do with gas cutting/leading of the barrel.

 

[RealGun]

Arky Paul, I really liked your post #42. Keith knew as bullet casters know today. Gas checks are only needed above 1,500 fps. Lyman's gas checks adds six cents or more to every bullet. Keith shot salvaged Linotype with a BHN of 22 sized to his S&W .44 HE 4". He was aware that the loads in a 4" did not hit 1,500 fps.

Somehow hardness mattered to Keith, shooting the hardest lead alloy available.