Is Lee Alox lube good enough for .357 mag loads?

[Arkansas Paul]

Well it is obvious we are never going to be in agreement.

You do what works for you, and I'll do what works for me.

I opened this post for opinions, and/or experiences with a particular lube. Somehow it has gotten way away from that.

 

[RealGun]

Well it is obvious we are never going to be in agreement.

You do what works for you, and I'll do what works for me.

I opened this post for opinions, and/or experiences with a particular lube. Somehow it has gotten way away from that.

That always happens when Dog Soldier throws in his little axioms, often not directly relevant, and someone challenges the information. In fairness, I believe he attacked the premise by downplaying the importance of lube in favor of his harping on bullet dimensions.

 

[forrest r]

In a word, YES
Lee's tumble lube will handle full house 357 loads. It will also handle full house loads in the 44mag along with p+ loads in the 38spl/45acp/44spl. I've had bullets in a 24" bbl'd 308 up to 2400fps+ with no leading.

What I did when testing the 45/45/10 that I made:
I started out with the 357 also owning several different firearms chambered in 357 with multiple bbl's. I started by sizing the cast bullets to .358" and gave the 2 heavy coats of lla. They shot fine with no leading do I tried a single heavy coat, same loads no problem. I did start to get leading at the muzzle end of the bbl's when I tried light coats of lla. Did more testing with lla in different calibers/firearms and ended up with.
1 light coat for light target plinking loads (all calibers)
1 heavy coat for hot loads in revolvers and medium rifle loads
2 heavy coats or a combo of 1 heavy coat and traditional lubed heavy rifle loads

A word about alloys/bhn's and cast bullets:
A bullets BHN is SSSSSSOOOOOOOO overrated!!!! Back in the day I started casting for myself/my own molds (80's) there were 3 alloys to use.
Range scrap
wheel weights
lino/mono type
Untold billions of bullets have been cast and shot down range using those "COMPLEX" alloys. It's extremely hard to grasp what the masters of the cast/lead bullet did back then.I'll try to explain it as best as I can. This is what I was taught:
Range scrap/ww's, cast and shoot it in everything. (8bhn to 12bhn)
Need a harder alloy/bullet? Use range scrap or ww's and water drop them. (15bhn-20bhn)
Need something harder than that? 3 parts range scrap/ww to 1 part lino or mono type and water drop (25bhn+)

I use those complicated alloys/methods to this day. I laugh my #$%# off every time I see someone parroting you have to use this bhn for a bullet because yada-yada-yada.
I have no idea how soooooo many casts got away with casts bullets out of free ww's and water dropped them when they cast bullets so the bullets wouldn't get all dinged up banging agaist other bullets. Typical ww alloy is 10bhn to 12 bhn, when water dropped it becomes 15bhn to 18bhn. Yup 15+bhn bullets in 14,00psi plinking/target loads in a 38spl or 45acp, been untold ton's of bullets shot this way.

So much for the bhn # x 1442 for a minimum pressure for that bullet bhn formula.

Anyway, coat the heck out of them and shoot them (2 heavy coats). If you have issues it isn't going to be with the 45/45/10 lube.

 

[RealGun]

In a word, YES
Lee's tumble lube will handle full house 357 loads. It will also handle full house loads in the 44mag along with p+ loads in the 38spl/45acp/44spl. I've had bullets in a 24" bbl'd 308 up to 2400fps+ with no leading.

What I did when testing the 45/45/10 that I made:
I started out with the 357 also owning several different firearms chambered in 357 with multiple bbl's. I started by sizing the cast bullets to .358" and gave the 2 heavy coats of lla. They shot fine with no leading do I tried a single heavy coat, same loads no problem. I did start to get leading at the muzzle end of the bbl's when I tried light coats of lla. Did more testing with lla in different calibers/firearms and ended up with.
1 light coat for light target plinking loads (all calibers)
1 heavy coat for hot loads in revolvers and medium rifle loads
2 heavy coats or a combo of 1 heavy coat and traditional lubed heavy rifle loads

A word about alloys/bhn's and cast bullets:
A bullets BHN is SSSSSSOOOOOOOO overrated!!!! Back in the day I started casting for myself/my own molds (80's) there were 3 alloys to use.
Range scrap
wheel weights
lino/mono type
Untold billions of bullets have been cast and shot down range using those "COMPLEX" alloys. It's extremely hard to grasp what the masters of the cast/lead bullet did back then.I'll try to explain it as best as I can. This is what I was taught:
Range scrap/ww's, cast and shoot it in everything. (8bhn to 12bhn)
Need a harder alloy/bullet? Use range scrap or ww's and water drop them. (15bhn-20bhn)
Need something harder than that? 3 parts range scrap/ww to 1 part lino or mono type and water drop (25bhn+)

I use those complicated alloys/methods to this day. I laugh my #$%# off every time I see someone parroting you have to use this bhn for a bullet because yada-yada-yada.
I have no idea how soooooo many casts got away with casts bullets out of free ww's and water dropped them when they cast bullets so the bullets wouldn't get all dinged up banging agaist other bullets. Typical ww alloy is 10bhn to 12 bhn, when water dropped it becomes 15bhn to 18bhn. Yup 15+bhn bullets in 14,00psi plinking/target loads in a 38spl or 45acp, been untold ton's of bullets shot this way.

So much for the bhn # x 1442 for a minimum pressure for that bullet bhn formula.

Anyway, coat the heck out of them and shoot them (2 heavy coats). If you have issues it isn't going to be with the 45/45/10 lube.

"Need a harder alloy/bullet?" Why, is the question, isn't it?

 

[Dog Soldier]

Linotype is not the hardest alloy available. Keith's shooting dated to the 1920s. The members of the research group "The .44 Specialist" did not have the powders and primers we have to day.
The long range handgun shooting used hard alloys for long range accuracy. The progressive propellants of 90 years ago would gas cut most alloys of that day. We have modern powders today that are less aggressive.

 

[Dog Soldier]

There are many types of bullet alloys many are very old. BHN Testing is 116 years old. All metals and alloys have indentation ratings. It seems if you ignore BHN data which dictate the pressures the alloy can handle why measure your powder? Pressures are what we deal with in safety and performance of loads.
Accepting loading data based on the powder and ignoring the pressure crated by your alloy is risky.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Real Gun you seem to have a very valuable amount of knowledge regarding reloading. Why not help all of us who seemed to need your help? Why not create a Blog on casting and reloading? You could educate the members of this forum by sharing your knowledge.

 

[243winxb]

Is Lee Alox lube good enough for .357 mag loads?

I like to see a lube star on the muzzle after firing 50 cast bullets. Then you know there is enough lube and its working.

 

[forrest r]

"Need a harder alloy/bullet?" Why, is the question, isn't it?

Why??
Bullet skidding and deformation in high pressure/high speed rifle loads in modrern calibers.. The longer bodied lead bullets used in rifles tend to skid/deform under higher pressures. The bullets nose will be in the riflings and begin twisting while the bottom of the bullet/bullet's base is either in the ball throat or the freebore of the chamber of more often then not, both. Softer alloy don't do well in this environment. The sharper throat angles of the modern calibers compound the issues as do the fast jacketed bullets twist rates. Seeing how I added rifle calibers in the post you quoted I added the use of different hardness of bullets.

I have no problem running 10bhn/12bhn bullets in the 357 with 30,000+psi loads using 45/45/10. Velocity is irrelevant because I've done so in 2 1/2"/4"/6"/8"/14" bbl's.

The OP asked about using a bullet lube and my answer is:
YES, enjoy yourself. I use that very same lube all the time.

 

[RealGun]

Linotype is not the hardest alloy available. Keith's shooting dated to the 1920s. The members of the research group "The .44 Specialist" did not have the powders and primers we have to day.
The long range handgun shooting used hard alloys for long range accuracy. The progressive propellants of 90 years ago would gas cut most alloys of that day. We have modern powders today that are less aggressive.

You didn't offer what alloy is harder than Linotype and in common use, available to the pedestrian caster or even in commercial bullets.

 

[RealGun]

There are many types of bullet alloys many are very old. BHN Testing is 116 years old. All metals and alloys have indentation ratings. It seems if you ignore BHN data which dictate the pressures the alloy can handle why measure your powder? Pressures are what we deal with in safety and performance of loads.
Accepting loading data based on the powder and ignoring the pressure crated by your alloy is risky.

Except we don't know what the pressure is, so the BHN and then the alloy cannot be extrapolated. Load data that I would use includes the bullet being used as the only safe context of the load. If the data should include pressure ratings, the charts available could be used to extrapolate what alloy to use in casting, but that is creating data, not using a proven source. We can find out what we need to know by tracking down the specs for the bullet referenced in the load. It seems what we really do is rely on someone else's reported experience, for example, no matter what the "experts" advise, very satisfactory results are being reported with softer alloys than supposedly are needed.

What I take from all this is that the leading issue is best addressed with bullet lube, assuming the bullet fits the gun, and that purchased bullets could be Aloxed in spite of already having full grease bands.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Great it seems you have solved your problems. That is what reloading and life is all about. Congratulations. Good luck.