Is my old 9mm brass the problem here?

[9mmGoon]

The cases in your picture appear to have blown out at the feed ramp. Some barrels don't provide enough support where the feed ramp enters the chamber. Brass exposed to ammonia (think cat piss) can lose the ductility needed to seal that gap. (The cat does not need to piss on the brass, only near it.)

You’re right about the feed ramp for sure. The first bad round broke the frame of my Glock 43x, launched the magazine at my thigh and i never found the extractor. However, the rest of the failures happened in my S&W FPC which has a fairly well supported chamber but is built like a tank.

 

[orionengnr]

Please post back and let us know what you find in re: new scale, new brass, etc.
I'm sure many would be interested--I certainly will.
Thank you, Rich

 

[Buzznrose]

I aint thin skinned so no worries, new mechanical scale on the way. I have shot alot of these next to the chrono and they were fairly consistent in the 1020-1040 range. I have much testing to do when the scale gets here. Honestly, i hope youre right and i have a bad scale.

I’ll be really interested to hear how they weigh out.

 

[SingleActionAndrew]

I would not shoot any more until you have a good scale. Then, pull a few bullets and weigh the powder in them. If you find you have way too much powder (mine was reading almost 3 grains lower than actual powder amount), you will have to pull them all. May be worth it to look into this if you have 400 bullets to do:

Frankford Arsenal Pile Driver Bullet Puller

The Pile Driver Bullet Puller from Frankford Arsenal is designed to mount to your bench or wall for convenient access. The easy lever design uses spring...

www.midwayusa.com

I agree to stop shooting. I have one of those pile drivers mounted in my workshop though and I refuse to use it. The cross pins are made of plastic, and after reading some incidents of catastrophic failures and then giving mine a close inspection it scares the crap out of me. Springs on it like a garage door, held together by plastic pins. They cheaped out and I think made it too dangerous to be worth it over a hand kinetic hammer.

 

[lordpaxman]

Ive shot approximately 600 of them, have 400 or so left. But you’re right, im definitely scraping the 5-6 thousand cases that i still have and will purchase new brass for any future 9mm reloading.

Good lord, no, please don’t scrap that brass. From your picture it looks perfectly fine, looks like what I have that I wet tumbled years ago. If you’re concerned about it, just set it aside for now. I’d be willing to load a test batch with it.
To check for setback, it’s safest to use dummy rounds, although I use live rounds. I have a 2x4 block I push the loaded round into as hard as I can, it dents the wood and you can measure if it decreases in length. For extra measure, thump it a few times. You should also load them in your gun, allow the slide to rack forward at normal speed, then eject and measure them again.
Even if you get a beam balance, you still should get check weights to verify the scale. There are inexpensive (20$) sets on Amazon and once a scale is calibrated, I’ll use a check weight that’s in the range of the powder throw I’m using.
You should also weigh your bullets, just to verify they weigh what you think.

 

[Walkalong]

The first bad round broke the frame of my Glock 43x, launched the magazine at my thigh and i never found the extractor. However, the rest of the failures happened in my S&W FPC which

That’s my main concern, you kept shooting them.

 

[Charlie98]

Im literally afraid to shoot anyone in a pislol but I’ll try that experiment in the pcc. I have 400ish left.

Please don't. The PCC's I'm familiar with are straight blowback... a case head failure there might very well turn out worse for you than the locked breech of the Glock.

I have ran some insanely hot 9mm loads and never seen that.

Same here. I won't go into details, but I never lost a case... not even a case split. Primer flow...? Ooooohhh yea.

That’s my main concern, you kept shooting them.

+1


With respect to everyone offering advise here... many of you keep discounting the potential of bad brass. I think you are wrong. His velocities are right where they are supposed to be, and, in fact, a bit less than guesstimated book. The OP seems confident in his methodology... barring an errant scale. I don't know if he was clocking any of the rounds and at the same time had a case failure... that would indicate an overcharge. I also understand bullet setback is a possibility, and I'm not discounting that, either.

I went through this very same merry-go-round with my M1a, and some 4 year old LC brass. I figured the first case head blow out was an anomaly. ...and then the second. ...and then the third. It must be the weapon, right? ...or my reloading technique? (I was new to the M1a platform at the time.) No, I'm not a metallurgist, but, in my case, the facts were staring me in the face: Bad or contaminated brass. I have further experience that led me to that conclusion, but I won't bore you with it.

It could very well turn out to be a combination of a number of factors... weak brass and a setback bullet. A heavy charge and bullet setback. An overcharge. But at the end of the day, I would not... could not... trust that brass. I would pull down those remaining cartridges, scrap ALL that brass... and move on with my life.

 

[Walkalong]

I would definitely scrap that batch of brass, just in case it really is bad, or strained from an overload, which I would be checking into. Check the scale etc, everything from start to finish.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I would definitely scrap that batch of brass, just in case it really is bad, or strained from an overload, which I would be checking into. Check the scale etc, everything from start to finish.

Yes start to finish. In fact I’d forget trying to find out what I did or didn’t do wrong and just move on. FORGET the past.

Reread your manual and then take one step at a time with new(er) brass, guaranteed correct primers and powder, correctly weighed powder, correct bullets, correct COL, plunked final cartridge.

 

[jmorris]

I have a hunch its the brass.

I say pick up any brass, that isn’t the brass you have now and load 10 rounds, with the same load.

If the result is the same as what you get now. The brass would become less of a suspect.

Reloading is more of a finesse activity, you are dealing with a lot of pressure and things that are more dangerous than you understand or you wouldn’t be contemplating going through another 400 rounds of failing ammunition.

No one wants to win the Darwin Award, it just happen. Stop, figure it out and resume, the eyes, fingers and firearm you save, just might be your own.

 

[packetloss]

Ive shot approximately 600 of them, have 400 or so left. But you’re right, im definitely scraping the 5-6 thousand cases that i still have and will purchase new brass for any future 9mm reloading. I have a hunch its the brass. Im no expert so idk, but maybe 9mm had lower operating pressures 30 years ago or this brass has just hardened. I tried to do a crush test and literally had to use the vise to do so. Here is the result…

For clarification, you shot 600 of these rounds and most of them were ok? Just a few ended up like the pictures you showed?
How many of the rounds functioned properly? How many were like your pictures?

Depending on the answer I'd suspect those were double charged or didn't enter the barrel properly and ended up causing an out of battery detonation.

During Covid I was out of 9mm cases and got about 1000 from an outdoor range where the cases were outdoors for over 5 years. They were the worst looking cases i've ever seen. Had to wet tumble them 3 times to get them looking good, but didn't have any of them fail like your pictures.

 

[N555]

Isolate all that brass and live ammo and go to the range and pickup some brass and reload it and see if the same thing happens.
If range pickup tests all good then break down that ammo and get rid of the brass.
Maybe send some to me for testing as I do hardness testing on cases.
I could load up some cases a full grain over max and then some and test them in my sten gun, as ruptured cases just make it dirty.

For clarification, you shot 600 of these rounds and most of them were ok? Just a few ended up like the pictures you showed?
How many of the rounds functioned properly? How many were like your pictures?

Depending on the answer I'd suspect those were double charged or didn't enter the barrel properly and ended up causing an out of battery detonation.

During Covid I was out of 9mm cases and got about 1000 from an outdoor range where the cases were outdoors for over 5 years. They were the worst looking cases i've ever seen. Had to wet tumble them 3 times to get them looking good, but didn't have any of them fail like your pictures.

Yeah I do the same thing I have 9mm and 45acp reloads with brown range brass that's been outside for who knows how long. Still runs fine.

Yes start to finish. In fact I’d forget trying to find out what I did or didn’t do wrong and just move on. FORGET the past.

Reread your manual and then take one step at a time with new(er) brass, guaranteed correct primers and powder, correctly weighed powder, correct bullets, correct COL, plunked final cartridge.

Forget the past, repeat the past.
Systematically hunt down the problem and eliminate it.

I say it could be the brass.
Go get range brass and retest.
It still seems overly hot rounds.

 

[N555]

I would definitely scrap that batch of brass, just in case it really is bad, or strained from an overload, which I would be checking into. Check the scale etc, everything from start to finish.

It's unlikely the brass is too hard at or near the head. The case head at least on rifle brass is normally quite a bit harder than the neck, shoulder and body until they have been reloaded a few times with out proper annealing.
Too hard, too soft I can test for that if I had a sample.

 

[N555]

Back in March this year I decided to try my hand at reloading. I knew my dad had a leftover 3 gallon bucket full of 9mm he ordered from Midway approximately 30 years ago.
I started out with a Hornady load manual and began loading. I used 4.7gn of CFE Pistol,cci primers, 124gn hornady fmj seated to 1.150.
Initial tests were good so i pressed on to 1000 rounds.
I began getting case failures. Seems like 1 in 60 average. I destroyed a glock frame when a case blew out at the head. I began running them in a pcc and have had a few more fail but no damage to the pcc. So im wandering if these cases are too brittle due to age because i have tried different powders, seat depths, primers and the lot but still have case failures.
Thanks for any help.

What's your reloading set-up look like?
What are you using for a press, powder measure and scales?
What do the finished rounds look like?
Do you have access to a chronograph?

 

[CQB45ACP]

Isolate all that brass and live ammo and go to the range and pickup some brass and reload it and see if the same thing happens.
If range pickup tests all good then break down that ammo and get rid of the brass.
Maybe send some to me for

Yeah I do the same thing I have 9mm and 45acp reloads with brown range brass that's been outside for who knows how long. Still runs fine.


Forget the past, repeat the past.
Systematically hunt down the problem and eliminate it.

I say it could be the brass.
Go get range brass and retest.
It still seems overly hot rounds.

No you’re wrong in this instance and certainly in the context I said it.

Focusing on the past steps biases everything you do. “I KNOW I didn’t over charge” I know I had correct COL.” “I KNOW the powder was correct”. I know, I know, I know…boom.

 

[N555]

Oh ok, i will try this exact method. I guess maybe a good idea to find my lands as well. That did not occur to me.

I always load mine over book coal if I can.
My pistol ammo is anywhere from book coal to 40 thousands over. Most end up being +0.01 to +0.025'' over.
Only gun I load right at book coal for my 380 that's because there just is no room to go longer.
If you go much more than 10 thousands over book load up 100 and shoot them. Make sure they all run.
I loaded up 100 berry's HP in 45acp to 1.25 inches, I had 1 that wouldn't go into battery. So now I make sure none come off the press over 1.24'', well I check about every tenth one. They're all 1.24 or less.

 

[jmorris]

For clarification, you shot 600 of these rounds and most of them were ok? Just a few ended up like the pictures you showed?
How many of the rounds functioned properly? How many were like your pictures?

From the 3rd paragraph in post #1.

Seems like 1 in 60 average. I destroyed a glock frame when a case blew out at the head.

Personally I would have stopped before the first destroyed firearm, certainly would have stopped at the point it KB’ed though. No reason to keep going with the same ammunition but expect different results.

 

[packetloss]

From the 3rd paragraph in post #1.

Yeah, 1 in 60 is both too much and too little at the same time. Obviously too much and too dangerous to keep going without pinpointing the issue, but probably too few to disassemble and weigh rounds and find another problem case.

Considering this happened in 2 different guns I still think it's overcharged rounds. I don't think a case would fail the way his did if it was weak brass with a normal charge.

 

[9mmGoon]

I agree to stop shooting. I have one of those pile drivers mounted in my workshop though and I refuse to use it. The cross pins are made of plastic, and after reading some incidents of catastrophic failures and then giving mine a close inspection it scares the crap out of me. Springs on it like a garage door, held together by plastic pins. They cheaped out and I think made it too dangerous to be worth it over a hand kinetic hammer.

I have the Hornady bullet puller, i like it pretty good. I am definitely on board with Frankford Arsenal stuff being cheap. I got their electronic powder thrower and its a POS. I also got the primer pocket swager and it broke, plus didn’t swage a 5.56 pocket worth a crap. Obviously FA doesn’t make any of that stuff, they just have the name on it, but some of it is poo

 

[ballman6711]

Were you using the chrono for any of the rounds that blew out? Might give a clue.

chris

 

[9mmGoon]

Good lord, no, please don’t scrap that brass. From your picture it looks perfectly fine, looks like what I have that I wet tumbled years ago. If you’re concerned about it, just set it aside for now. I’d be willing to load a test batch with it.
To check for setback, it’s safest to use dummy rounds, although I use live rounds. I have a 2x4 block I push the loaded round into as hard as I can, it dents the wood and you can measure if it decreases in length. For extra measure, thump it a few times. You should also load them in your gun, allow the slide to rack forward at normal speed, then eject and measure them again.
Even if you get a beam balance, you still should get check weights to verify the scale. There are inexpensive (20$) sets on Amazon and once a scale is calibrated, I’ll use a check weight that’s in the range of the powder throw I’m using.
You should also weigh your bullets, just to verify they weigh what you think.

Indeed i did try pushing on a few of these against the bench. I pushed till i felt like my thumb was gonna snap after a few attempts but i was unable to get the bullet to move. Thats not to say the pistol or FPC could not, just that i cant by pressing on it.

 

[9mmGoon]

That’s my main concern, you kept shooting them.

Haha, mama always said stupid is as stupid does

 

[9mmGoon]

For clarification, you shot 600 of these rounds and most of them were ok? Just a few ended up like the pictures you showed?
How many of the rounds functioned properly? How many were like your pictures?

Depending on the answer I'd suspect those were double charged or didn't enter the barrel properly and ended up causing an out of battery detonation.

During Covid I was out of 9mm cases and got about 1000 from an outdoor range where the cases were outdoors for over 5 years. They were the worst looking cases i've ever seen. Had to wet tumble them 3 times to get them looking good, but didn't have any of them fail like your pictures.

Of the 600 this is all of them

 

[9mmGoon]

Were you using the chrono for any of the rounds that blew out? Might give a clue.

chris

I wasn’t at the time. I tried though. Tis Labradar takes 6 AA batteries and they dont last very long.

 

[9mmGoon]

From the 3rd paragraph in post #1.



Personally I would have stopped before the first destroyed firearm, certainly would have stopped at the point it KB’ed though. No reason to keep going with the same ammunition but expect different results.

Curious how you stop before the first failure. Subsequent failures happened in a firearm with a more robust construction that i made the decision to risk for the sake of learning.
If i stop at one, how do i know if its an anomaly? If i inspect and weigh another 100, how else can i find out if theyre good or bad. You see, the thing is, if i am to load ammunition that i or someone in my house may depend on for their protection, i need to know the rounds are dependable and safe. If i have some bad ones, i need to know it, then i need to find out why so i dont make the same mistakes. So when i am satisfied that i have tested all possibilities of failure on my part i can shift the blame to the brass, take it to a recycling center for $1 a pound, and start over.
If i could see the future like you can, i myself would’ve stopped before the first failure, saved myself a $150 repair bill, and wouldn’t be on this forum subjecting myself to the judgement of others. Im merely asking if it could be the brass. Simple as that.