Is Osama bin Laden a genius?

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I'm not very impressed with him.

What is victory in war? Victory in war is obtaining the objectives for which you initiated the war. You can win every battle and if you fail to obtain your objectives and the enemy does obtain their objectives...guess what?

Personally, I fear that history will remember OBL as the initial spark on the powder trail that led to the genocide of the Muslims. Many of the moderate Muslims seem to think that they can ignore the Islamists and play both ends against the middle.

I don't necessarily think it will be the US that initiates the genocide. I think that the Islamists will hit France hard sooner or later. If they hit Paris as hard as they hit New York...I think that France will find some Muslims to nuke.

If more Muslims don't realize that there is a fundamental force disparity between their countries and the West...OBL is likely to be Islam's worst enemy in the final analysis.
 
I don't know about "genocide", but there very well could be another war of religions in Europe. Europe has a very large muslem minority, and they haven't done much integrating within their hosts. In fact, one (I think Holland) is actually considering expelling all their muslems. Let another Madrid train bombing or Beslan happen in France or Germany, and things will get very ugly very fast.
 
OBL is simply a rich SOB, nothing more. But he does have a methodology which will work against the US in the current political state of this country. Take a bunch of Statists and put them in offices at all levels. Add a bunch of extremist idiots willing to kill themselves to affect change as they want it and Presto, we get a totalitarian state.

All for our own good, you know.

The best way to destroy Israel is to turn the US in upon itself. The best way to generate "good will" among his fellow travelers is to damage the very things that make the US great, freedom and decency. On these points OBL and his cronies have thus far been reasonably effective, though at great cost to their own structure. OTOH any kind of agenda such as his is a tightrope walk which can go either way.

So could have we. Imagine if Gore had been in office on 9/11. Now, even better, imagine Hillary, Schumer et al in charge when the next 9/11 occurs. OBL is no genius but he may yet prove to be very effective.
 
So could have we. Imagine if Gore had been in office on 9/11. Now, even better, imagine Hillary, Schumer et al in charge when the next 9/11 occurs. OBL is no genius but he may yet prove to be very effective.
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Indeed. I have had this conversation many times. If Gore had been President, we would most likely be having some sort of limited civil war right now (bombings, etc.) I firmly believe if the extreme left were in charge on 9/11 they would have seized the opportunity to ban private possession of firearms, leading to chaos.
 
Long, but I will post it anyways. Note how his complaints (not respecting individuals, restricted access to weapons for self-defense) is much like ours...

Why Do Americans Hate Muslims?
Reem Al-Faisal, Arab News



A few weeks ago an American I met at a friends house asked a much repeated query, “Why do you the Muslims hate the Americans?” To which I answered in the same way as all the preceding instances in which this question was posed to me: “We don’t hate the Americans, we might disagree with a certain US policy and dislike recent American actions in the Muslim world but we surely don’t hate the American people.”

The American who interrogated me was clearly not convinced with my answer and secretly I wasn’t either. The truth is that at present the Muslims hate America and now, they hate not only its policymakers but most of the American people since they have proven recently without a shadow of doubt that they agree with their elite by voting back into office, by a comfortable majority, the Bush administration inspite of it’s obvious record of lies and abuse of power. The Americans can never claim from now on that they didn’t know that there where no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They can’t claim that they didn’t know torture wasn’t widespread in American prisons, from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib, and the thousands of other secret detention centers. They surely can’t claim not to know of this entire episode in which thousands have lost their lives and much more have seen their homes and lands destroyed as a result of the American military and its leaders who don’t hesitate in using the massive destructive power of the US on defenseless civilians.

My American friend was right, we do hate them now, but he never asked himself the question “Why?” Why should a people living on the other side of the planet feel any sort of emotion toward the Americans, be it hate or love? Does anyone ever ask if the Muslims hate the Chileans or love the Chinese or dislike the Uruguayans? No, we are forever asked to express some sort of intense emotion toward the Americans. So, I have to admit finally, after decades of relations with the US, that they have convinced us that we should feel something and that our feelings have been boiled down today to pure hate. And why not? What have we as a people seen from the US in the past half century but an absence of respect for Muslim life, culture or religion, contempt and disregard for our rights and finally murder and torture from Afghanistan to Iraq.

The US has further driven us to dislike America with its blind support for a colonialist power such as Israel, in fact the only one left in the region. Whenever we have tried in the past to help alleviate the plight of the Palestinians we only got vetoed by the US at the UN Security Council followed by the free flow of arms and money to kill our fellow compatriots from Palestine to Lebanon. And whenever we Arabs try to get arms to defend ourselves against one of the strongest armies in the world, which has never hesitated in using its destructive power with impunity against us, we are blocked by America from acquiring the means by which we could defend ourselves.

We have watched America attack us, destroy us, impose embargoes against our nations and then conquer our lands, imprison our people and generally deal with us as though we are savage animals whereby every single law be it international or even American is totally disregarded when it concerns the rights of Arab and Muslim individuals. Then they ask us why we hate them? Tell me why do you hate us? What terrible crime have the Muslims committed against you in the past to deserve your interminable enmity? What have we done to see you rampage through our lands destroying and killing, then claiming obscenely that it was worth it for the sake of liberty and democracy?

Is it worth it for the million and a half Iraqis murdered in the embargo or the thousands of Afghans killed by your ever so “smart” bombs? Or should we ask the Iraqis of today, whom you’ve killed by the thousands? Was all this death and destruction worth it for them? Did you ever bother to ask their opinion before you played God with the lives and destinies of this nation?

Finally, you take aim at our religion by humiliating our beliefs. You abuse our book, use our convictions to torture us and degrade us, disregarding your own laws and religion which is as noble as ours and to which torture and humiliation is anathema.

What were you thinking when you threw the Qur’an in the toilet or when you used religion as a means of torture? I fail to see the efficacy of such actions in the so-called war on terror. These methods only point to a deep sickness in your society to which it will take decades for us and the rest of the world to understand its cause and to measure its destructive results. No, the question which someday will have to be answered is why, why do you the Americans hate us the Muslims so much?

— Reem Al-Faisal is a Saudi photographer and writer based in Jeddah
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I love how the mere existence of Israel excuses ANY behavior on the part of Arabs. Sorry, you morons, you were greedy exterminationist anti-semites in 1948, and the Jews kicked your asses. Get over it, the fact that you are losers is largely your own damn fault.

You= the author and his ilk.
 
I tend to disagree with the author myself. However, the point I was trying to make was that if we are going to win the war politically (since I doubt that we, as a nation, are willing to win a war militarily the old fashioned way - by killing everyone) then we will have to present a political arguement that counters the one in the article. "Get over it, the fact that you are losers is largely your own damn fault" is most likely not that arguement.
 
"That" argument doesn't exist. Because all those excuses the author posted are just that, excuses. You can't argue against them because they are not logical and do not exist as any real justification. They are a cover for the truth: The Arab nations hate the Jews. The Arab nations hate us because we support the Jews AND because we are very successful even in diametric opposition to their religion, such as it is.

The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.
 
The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.
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I doubt the hate will end when Israel ends- one of their biggest goals is to destoy western democracy. Destroying Israel will not accomplish that. Not that they could destroy Israel anyway, at least without nukes.
If the rest of the world and the U.N. would stop breathing down Israel's neck about everything they do, I can see Israel as a great future ally against middle eastern islamofacism.
 
to me, it makes zero difference what Osama is..or what he stands for, anyone who comes to this country or sends someone into this country to kill our people, is my enemy. I do not care about his beliefs, what god he supports.. the color of his skin... or his past , present, or future plans.... I am indifferent to his cause or if he is rich or poor....you kill my people... and we WILL come for you. to be a good fighter, you must be able to take a punch...he got in a good punch...but a punch is not the fight. all the theroy in the world...has nothing to do with this war... action is what decides issues.. how would your father, or grandfather dealt with this.... with resolve. Memorial day...a day to remember the fallen.... lets learn from our mistakes....and get this task done.
 
OT and not addressed to anyone in particular: Arabs are Semitic people
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Se·mit·ic (sə-mĭt'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.

Well I'll be damned, learn something new everyday, when you want to
 
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OT and not addressed to anyone in particular: Arabs are Semitic people.
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Um, OK. True but completely irrelevant. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews (not, in common usage, Semites in general — see the Scope section below).
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Or, as Webster puts it:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=anti-semitism

Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun
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Any other pedantic points to get out of the way while we're at it? :neener:
 
The hate will end when Israel ends. Most of it, anyway. We'll cease to be such a major lightning rod, though they still won't have any use for us. There is no argument or solution for this, except to roll over and die. Or kill them all. I suspect they'll agitate until we do the latter, or Hillary and other Dems will regain power and we'll do the former, also assuring Israel does it too.
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No, it won't. Israel is a convenient excuse and good for 30-second sound bits and one-liners to keep the illiterati frothing at the mouth.

The fanatics who are blowing things up hate America because we are the Great Corrupter. We are the snake in their Eden.

And, in a way this is true: America remakes the world in her own image by way of Hollywood and the Internet.

And there is nothing in that image which is compatible with fanatical fundamentalist Muslims.

They teach their children unquestioning obedience to God. We give them Bruce Almighty. On DVD. With special effects.

The religious fanatics teach their daughters that they have no souls, and maybe get to heaven riding on the coattails of their husbands. Then we haul off and play Thelma and Louise; Steel Magnolias; and Fried Green Tomatos on 24-hour Satellite TeeVee and we add sub-titles at no cost.

We are destroying their culture. Period. We're putting a Mickey Dee's on every corner, Baywatch on every TV, and a Victoria's Secret in every mailbox.

Losing your worldview is a rough thing, even if you're not a fanatic. People have gone to war, killed and committed atrocities for far less.

LawDog
 
Again, I recommend Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong? -- Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response."

Lewis is a Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University.

Well written and not lengthy. Gives a pretty good background as to the inherent cultural aspects which lead to problems in interactions with the West.

Art
 
So, just how are we supposed to win? I do not think that DVDs and Victoria Secret catalogs will be successful...

My position is, unless we are willing to drop a few nukes and send in helicopter gunships to shoot everything that moves, they will continue to reproduce at a rate that exceeds our kill rate. This is a recipe for perpetual war.

I am of the opinion that it would be to our benefit to seek to understand the enemy in order to effectively combat them. Simply calling them savages and saying, "I don't care what they think" is not being a very good strategist.

If you think that the Muslim world are going to be hostile while Israel exists (and beyond) how do we change this. Again, what is the alternative to genocide?
 
one imporant thing I learned when there..if two of them are trying to kill each other, and you try to stop them, they both will kill you, for their right, to kill each other....there is a lesson there.
 
Ah, but the DVD's and catalogs are successful -- that's why we're having the problems.

How do we win? We kill as many of the fanatics as possible, we help as many of the moderates as possible, and we let Nature take its course.

Understand, any fanatical fundamentalist religion only remains powerful as long as it keeps its followers in the dark about everything else.

These heady days of the Infobahn are making that very difficult, if not outright impossible.

It's not going to happen over-night. If we're lucky, it'll take a generation. More probably it'll take two generations, but it's inevitable.

Yes, inevitable. Islam is going to change. The only choice that they, or we, have in the matter is whether the fighting that will accompany such change happens on their dirt, or ours.

LawDog
 
al-Zawahiri is the reputed brains of al-Qaida, rather than bin Laden, who's not stupid, but still has more money than brains.
 
No, it won't. Israel is a convenient excuse and good for 30-second sound bits and one-liners to keep the illiterati frothing at the mouth.
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and...

I doubt the hate will end when Israel ends- one of their biggest goals is to destoy western democracy.
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I'm kind of dissappointed that this flew right by folks: The Arab nations hate us because we support the Jews AND because we are very successful even in diametric opposition to their religion, such as it is.

My point being consistent among both my paragraphs: The state of Israel and Western culture being inextricably linked at this point and the downfall of one being the downfall of the other to one degree at some point. I suppose I could have made it more clear but it seemed obvious to me when I wrote it... *shrug*
 
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