Is "Pet Load" a valid concept?

[Bfh_auto]

Hornaday eldm, Sierra smk, and berger juggernaut, and lapua scanners all do just fine.

I was expecting flat based options for a pet. They seem to be less effected by not tuning seating depth.

 

[AJC1]

I was expecting flat based options for a pet. They seem to be less effected by not tuning seating depth.

Rifle games for me are out to 600 in metallic Silhouette. If I was in 200 or in shortrange games I'd be all flat base. I've always wanted a big box of barts 68 grain 6mm.

 

[BJung]

I own a Ken Waters' Petloads book and I use it religiously as a reference guide. There are some petloads that are almost universally applicable like 2.8gr BE for 38-148WC or 5.0 gr BE for 45-230 FMJ. Ken Water's post for his T99 Arisaka using R19 and R15 was the same as mine. His book has a list of petloads for a Belgian Browning 7Rem Mag. I have the same rifle and believe his load will be close to mine because the parts are similar as compared to say a Browning BAR or Remington 700. To begin, I assemble a ladder test and circle the petload someone has recommended. Sometimes the petload I find online is close for my handgun and sometimes not. There are so many different handgun models. I shoot a BHP and the petload could be from someone's Glock.

 

[AJC1]

I own a Ken Waters' Petloads book and I use it religiously as a reference guide. There are some petloads that are almost universally applicable like 2.8gr BE for 38-148WC or 5.0 gr BE for 45-230 FMJ. Ken Water's post for his T99 Arisaka using R19 and R15 was the same as mine. His book has a list of petloads for a Belgian Browning 7Rem Mag. I have the same rifle and believe his load will be close to mine because the parts are similar as compared to say a Browning BAR or Remington 700. To begin, I assemble a ladder test and circle the petload someone has recommended. Sometimes the petload I find online is close for my handgun and sometimes not. There are so many different handgun models. I shoot a BHP and the petload could be from someone's Glock.

I'd love those arasaka loads if you please...

 

[Charlie98]

Yes and no.

Many of the generic pet loads are just a combination of a very good bullet and very good powder combination. You are not going to find a .308 pet load with a 168grn SMK and IMR4198, but I'll bet you will with IMR4064... which just happens to be roughly equivalent to the FGMM 168grn load. Go figure. There are also umpteen variations on what a 'pet load' is good for. Hunting? Target shooting? Match shooting? Any number of specialized accuracy shoots? The list goes on.

 

[Varminterror]

Why not simply cut to the chase and develop a single load that everyone can use and be done with it? A load that duplicates factory ammo. Same case, primer, powder (or similar), bullet, bullet seating depth, etc. In short, a pet load.

I’ve never heard a “factory clone load” be called a “pet load.”

The simple answer to “why not recreate factory ammo,” is that in most cases, factory ammo can’t be well replicated, and in many cases, these anecdotes of factory ammo shooting 1/2moa are simply lies by online braggarts. We’re bound as reloaders to using canister powders, which factory ammo manufacturers don’t have to use. Replicating muzzle velocity with a different powder is not the same as replicating the load, as the pressure curve and primary ignition cycle can vary wildly for different powders.

The other answer to the question - why not develop a load which works well for any rifle? - is that we don’t have every rifle, we only have a single or a few rifles. We also know those 1/2moa reports from one individuals rifle isn’t a guarantee of precision in another rifle, especially not in factory rifles.

And of course, 1/2moa at 100yrds may not mean diddly piss at distance. As an example, I have had Hornady Black match ammo in 6.5 Grendel shoot exceptionally small at 100, often in the 1/2-3/4moa ballpark. But I’ve had lots (as in production runs) of this ammo demonstrate very high velocity instability. This target on the right has 78fps ES at 875 yards, whereas the left is only 24fps ES… either of these would be indistinguishable at 100yrds, in the 1/2-2/3moa ballpark. But I can reload away those ~50fps ES, but can’t ensure it won’t present itself in a factory clone - so when someone says online ammo shoots great for their rifle, that might not mean Jack squat beyond the 100yrd target they put up.



I HAVE seen a few “pet loads” which simply shoot small in many, many rifles. As an example, I was handed a “pet load” in ~1998 as a practice load for Service Rifle - 27.3grn Varget under 55grn ball. I couldn’t find ball bullets as consistent as 50 Vmax’s, so I transferred the load to this new bullet. I’ve shot this load in something around 400 barrels since 1998, and have passed it to dozens of other shooters, it has never failed to deliver reliable accuracy. Obviously not the MOST accurate load in most rifles, but sufficiently so in ALL rifles that I am confident in saying - if this load doesn’t shoot well in a rifle, the rifle don’t wanna shoot… I’m also 11 barrels deep into 6 creed, from 6 different chambering reamers from 15” to 26”, and in every one, 41.8grn H4350 in Hornady brass under 105 Hybrids will shoot ~1/2moa or smaller and single digit SD’s, whether it’s jumping 5 thou or 150 thou. So in my next barrels, I’ll always look for a node in that charge weight ballpark.

But it did take a several thousand rounds in several thousands of dollars worth of barrels to identify these loads as “universal” rather than “unique.” Which most folks simply don’t have time or interest in doing. It’s easier to get provenance that a load works well in ONE rifle than to prove it works in all rifles.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Actually, Dad and I got to almost the same place, but independent of each other. I didn't find his notes until I had already finished my load workup. But we did use different 4831 powders. Don't think the H version was even around 45 years ago.

The “H” 4831 actually predates the IMR4831 by several decades.
Originally, the H4831 was surplus powder left over from loading 20mm antiaircraft cartridges for the 20mm Oerlikon gun following WWII.

Bruce Hodgdon bought several rail road car loads of it and went into the gun powder business!
A gunsmith friend of mine from back in the 1980’s had a “keg” of it. He let me “scoop” a couple of pounds of it to use to work up a load for a Ruger #1 he had but had not had time to work with it. At the time, he was building a 98 Mauser custom in .257Roberts for me. I had a chronograph and documented the work up.

It took me 10 years to shoot up all that powder! His “two pounds” was more like 5.
It was great!

 

[marchboom]

I hate the term "pet load". Just like I hate the terms "pill" for bullet and "furniture" for the stock, forend and/or grip.

 

[Howa 9700]

The “H” 4831 actually predates the IMR4831 by several decades.
Originally, the H4831 was surplus powder left over from loading 20mm antiaircraft cartridges for the 20mm Oerlikon gun following WWII.

Bruce Hodgdon bought several rail road car loads of it and went into the gun powder business!
A gunsmith friend of mine from back in the 1980’s had a “keg” of it. He let me “scoop” a couple of pounds of it to use to work up a load for a Ruger #1 he had but had not had time to work with it. At the time, he was building a 98 Mauser custom in .257Roberts for me. I had a chronograph and documented the work up.

It took me 10 years to shoot up all that powder! His “two pounds” was more like 5.
It was great!

That may explain why Dad's load notes only say 4831. I had assumed IMR or Dupont, as the rifle powders he used mostly came that way. I still have 3 of those cans with powder still in them. But we also got a lot of stuff from Wall's Grocery in Blairstown, MO, and John (owner) often dipped what we want from the large kegs, weighed it out on a hanging scale and dumped it in a paper sack. Generally that was Red Dot, Green Dot or 700X, but could have done that with the 4831 too.

Bizarre place Walls. Those were the days.

 

[ms6852]

Why not simply cut to the chase and develop a single load that everyone can use and be done with it? A load that duplicates factory ammo. Same case, primer, powder (or similar), bullet, bullet seating depth, etc. In short, a pet load. Something to duplicate and replace factory level ammo and be done with it?

One word comes to mind why one load is not good enough for all rifles...HARMONICS! You can build two exact rifles with the same stock of steel blanks and they will shoot differently. Harmonics on one rifle will have the bullet exit at a different point than the other. That is why pet loads or favorite loads are done for each rifle. I have two 30-06 rifles that both love the 165 grain bullets but not the same powder. Go figure.

 

[Howa 9700]

But remember, there are both factory and custom guns sold with MOA guarantees using specified factory ammo. In theory, you could have 50 Tikka, Howa or Bergara guns and all will shoot that level of MOA. Normally 1 inch or less. With GA Precision........that is 3/8" MOA. Factory ammo. No load workup, no loading to lands or any of that.

 

[NR53]

That may explain why Dad's load notes only say 4831. I had assumed IMR or Dupont, as the rifle powders he used mostly came that way. I still have $3 of those cans with powder still in them. But we also got a lot of stuff from Wall's Grocery in Blairstown, MO, and John (owner) often dipped what we want from the large kegs, weighed it out on a hanging scale and dumped it in a paper sack. Generally that was Red Dot, Green Dot or 700X, but could have done that with the 4831 too.
Bizarre place Walls. Those were the days.

I remember Walls quite well. Bought a Rem 700 BDL in 30 06 from them in Sept of 78. Opened every box they had to find the one with the prettiest stock. I don't think John was happy with me, but for $179, I was going to get what I wanted. LOL

 

[Slamfire]

I remember when the 30-06 was still a competitive cartridge, but waning, in NRA Highpower. The cartridge had been around long enough that there were a couple of loads that were very common on the firing line. The first, a 168 SMK with 47 grains of IMR 4895, and the 168 SMK with 55.0 grains of IMR 4350.






And then a common load for the M1a was a 168 SMK with 41.5 grs IMR 4895 in a LC case. And with a bolt gun, if your rifle did not shoot accurately with a 168 SMK and 40.5 grain IMR 4895, then either the rifle was junk, or the shooter!

When the 223 took over, there were lots of shooters using N140 and Varget and the AR15 loads all tended to be within a grain of each other. So, in certain applications, there are convergences.

I can say in 2700 Bullseye Pistol, 4.2 grains Bullseye Pistol Powder with a 185 LSWC is pretty much a standard load. You have to put in a 12 lb recoil spring, but it will shoot great.








In a 1950's American Rifleman, Clark recommended the 200 gr H&G bullet with 3.5 grains Bullseye and I am sure he won the National Championships with that load.




That was before optical sights, and I found I had to bump up my 200 grain bullets to 4.1 grains Bullseye for reliable function.

and among the Greybeards who shot revolver, the 148 wad cutter, be it hollow base or not, 2.7 grains Bullseye (the goal was 740 fps at the muzzle for 50 yard stability) was the standard load for decades.

When I yak with the F Class guys, the 6.5 Creedmore shooters are using H4350 and tend to cluster around a norm for powder charges. And bullets.

 

[Varminterror]

But remember, there are both factory and custom guns sold with MOA guarantees using specified factory ammo. In theory, you could have 50 Tikka, Howa or Bergara guns and all will shoot that level of MOA. Normally 1 inch or less. With GA Precision........that is 3/8" MOA. Factory ammo. No load workup, no loading to lands or any of that.

This isn’t quite apt, for a few reasons:

1) Remember, some of these factory rifles come with a target in the box. Their MOA guarantee is worthless in the hands of the owner, because that target proved it was achieved before the rifle ever left the factory.

2) In some of these rifles - for example, the GA Precision rifles - they DO cut the chamber and throat with that specific load in mind, so they ARE considering jump to the lands in the rifle design. Of course, 3/8” from a $4000 custom rifle with a match bullet isn’t really asking so much either…

3) And as I mentioned in my first - even if a rifle does shoot 3/8 or 1 MOA at 100yrds, it might not mean diddly piss for the velocity consistency of the load they chose and it’s influence on downrange groups.

4) AND again - civilian reloaders typically cannot actually replicate factory loads, as we do not have access to non-canister powders. As an example, directly, I shot a few matches with a couple of engineers from Hornady two years ago, they were running 6 ARC’s with non-canister powders which were exceptionally temp stable and exceptionally fast. The only canister powder which would come close to that speed was LeverEvolution, which is famously temperature sensitive… so if their load represented factory ammo, a civilian reloader trying to replicate it with canister powders would not be remotely close to actual replication of the load - just a similar speed. I’m sure it would shoot small, because shooting small isn’t terribly hard, but it would be spikey as all get out in hot weather, and super temperamental, whereas their non-canister load was not, hence why they were using that powder in their match handloads.

 

[Poper]

Here is another example from a year ago......one I'm not entirely proud of, but is what it is. Dad's old 270. No factory ammo to be had. Deer season coming on. Had only started loading and had done some load ladders and decided 58 grains of H4831sc was what I wanted to try. Loaded 4 more rounds to test, and with limited time and dark settling in, wind blowing about 20 MPH from left to right, put this target up at 125 yards, and using a large round hay bale as my rest, let fly. The flyer was on me. I flinched. Take that out and the remaining group is not too bad. Move it right an inch, down and inch and that rifle would hunt.

View attachment 1122334

So here was my Dad's load.......about 45 years before. Same gun even same weight of Hornady bullet. Didn't find that until afterwards. His would have been IMR 4831.

View attachment 1122335

I burned thru a lot of primers, powder and bullets (rejected several other load ladders) to wind up in almost the same place. If there are known loads that just seem to work, why not start with those before re-inventing the wheel?

57.5 gr. IMR4831 and 130 Speer HotCor is where I ended up with my dad's old Parker-Hale in .270 Win. 3/4" to 1" 5-round groups is the norm. My brother inherited that one.
With my Tikka T-3 Lite in .270 Win., the recipe is 56.8 gr. IMR4831 and 130gr. Berger. IMR 4831 and 130 gr. bullets in the .270 Win. go together like peas and carrots, to paraphrase an old friend.
The 56 gr - 58 gr range seems to be where they often end up.

 

[21H40]

...
4) AND again - civilian reloaders typically cannot actually replicate factory loads, as we do not have access to non-canister powders. As an example, directly, I shot a few matches with a couple of engineers from Hornady two years ago, they were running 6 ARC’s with non-canister powders which were exceptionally temp stable and exceptionally fast. The only canister powder which would come close to that speed was LeverEvolution, which is famously temperature sensitive…

What do you mean by "canister" and "non-canister" powders? What is the difference, and why is it important?

 

[AJC1]

What do you mean by "canister" and "non-canister" powders? What is the difference, and why is it important?

Canister is what you can go buy off the shelf. Noncanister is what companies can order to meet their needs and specifications

 

[Slamfire]

Canister is what you can go buy off the shelf. Noncanister is what companies can order to meet their needs and specifications

Right.

Gunpowder at the end of the production line varies considerably in terms of burn rate and pressure curve. That's not a problem to a user who has his own pressure gauge and can adjust the charge weight to a desired pressure curve and velocity. The stuff we get is blended to an average pressure curve, Accurate Arms told me they blended their powders to plus or minus 5% of their standard. And said industry standard was plus or minus 10%.

Even then, given a gunpowder that meets the mean, it is still only an average. Look how much variance is allowed in old ammunition specs:





And then look at what it means in terms of the occasional high pressure round


Given a charge that averages 50,000 psia, about every two out of a hundred fired, will be over 60,000 psia. That is why maximum loads cause lots and lots of problems.

 

[mavracer]

Obviously not the MOST accurate load in most rifles, but sufficiently so in ALL rifles that I am confident in saying - if this load doesn’t shoot well in a rifle, the rifle don’t wanna shoot…

That's exactly what I think when I think pet load.
Like the Skeeter 44 Special 7.5gr of Unique with a 240 cast SWC, if your 44 don't shoot that it's got issues.

 

[EMC45]

3gr. Bullseye under a 158gr. cast Lee RNFP bullet. Shot quite a few of them and they do great.

 

[21H40]

Right.
Even then, given a gunpowder that meets the mean, it is still only an average. Look how much variance is allowed in old ammunition specs:
...
Given a charge that averages 50,000 psia, about every two out of a hundred fired, will be over 60,000 psia. That is why maximum loads cause lots and lots of problems.

I had expected SOME variance, but it feels different seeing actual numbers! More incentive to stay in the middle of the curve

 

[Palladan44]

"Pet" just a slang for "favorite", "Go-to" or " Old stand-by" to name a few. One of my favorites is actually "Grandpa's old recipe". And man, is it awesome. I'll share it with you all. Grandpa, rest in peace sir.

357 Magnum, 1976 Smith and Wesson M-28-2 6"
Once fired brass, either FC or RP wet rod tumbled so bright and shiny. Trimming isn't really necessary for this one since it's only taper crimped.
CCI SPP
158gr. LSWC. Brinell 18. Sized to .358" Blue lube (don't know what it's called)
12.5 gr. Alliant 2400. (Pic of one of Grandpa's old Hercules canisters for dramatization purposes) Seated to 1.5800"
Chronos about 1225 fps.


It shoots just about as accurate as light target wadcutters, but has magnum power. It makes a report and puff of smoke just like John Wayne's 45 Long Colt, it literally shoots just like one too.
Plenty of power to kill deer, I honestly can say this would be the last practical combination I'd ever want to give up. It is truly a do-it-all load.

 

[Howa 9700]

Epilogue:

With curiosity running wild, and it being available from Midway, I ordered Ken Waters "Pet Loads", the complete volume. It surely is that. About same overall size as Lyman's 50th, except at least 2 inches thick, triple column spacing and half the font size. Where Lyman includes a few paragraphs on each caliber, Waters includes 3 to 5 PAGES of paragraphs. Not just about the loads he worked up, but the why of the loads. Powder and bullets mostly. Curious, however......copyright date 2021, yet no mention of the Creedmoors.

But as for the book, my take is that while these "pet loads" are summarized in short table form, there were no shortcuts taken getting there. His goals apparently very similar to mine. Best accuracy and a velocity very close or equal to factory loads for same bullet.......at a safe pressure. Almost all of these shot with sporter rifles not so much different than what most of us might use. No test barrels.

A couple observations. Some of his workups were done using only one rifle, so is easy to dismiss these pet loads as being unique to his gun, and that would be fair. He does not run same load thru 10 guns to find out which works well in all of them. Having said that, for the calibers I'm loading for, where he wound up is remarkably similar to where I wound up.

And one last observation, and this is something I'm starting to notice that repeats. He includes a update of his original 6mm Rem loads. For that work, he used a custom made rifle.....one he went to great lengths to explain how much effort went into building that rifle.....barrel work, etc. In the end, his best loads started out at 0.8 MOA, eventually dropping to 0.7 MOA once the barrel was broken in and his load perfected. NOT a one hole wonder. The point being I'm not that far behind him using a factory Rem 700 that has now been free floated and bedded, but that is it. If that is what he got using an expensive custom gun, I'm doing better than I thought. Noticed the same thing in an article that appeared in Hodgdon's 2022 Annual manual. The accuracy of my loads as good or better than the expert writer got. Perspective.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Epilogue:

With curiosity running wild, and it being available from Midway, I ordered Ken Waters "Pet Loads", the complete volume. It surely is that. About same overall size as Lyman's 50th, except at least 2 inches thick, triple column spacing and half the font size. Where Lyman includes a few paragraphs on each caliber, Waters includes 3 to 5 PAGES of paragraphs. Not just about the loads he worked up, but the why of the loads. Powder and bullets mostly. Curious, however......copyright date 2021, yet no mention of the Creedmoors.

But as for the book, my take is that while these "pet loads" are summarized in short table form, there were no shortcuts taken getting there. His goals apparently very similar to mine. Best accuracy and a velocity very close or equal to factory loads for same bullet.......at a safe pressure. Almost all of these shot with sporter rifles not so much different than what most of us might use. No test barrels.

A couple observations. Some of his workups were done using only one rifle, so is easy to dismiss these pet loads as being unique to his gun, and that would be fair. He does not run same load thru 10 guns to find out which works well in all of them. Having said that, for the calibers I'm loading for, where he wound up is remarkably similar to where I wound up.

And one last observation, and this is something I'm starting to notice that repeats. He includes an update of his original 6mm Rem loads. For that work, he used a custom made rifle.....one he went to great lengths to explain how much effort went into building that rifle.....barrel work, etc. In the end, his best loads started out at 0.8 MOA, eventually dropping to 0.7 MOA once the barrel was broken in and his load perfected. NOT a one hole wonder. The point being I'm not that far behind him using a factory Rem 700 that has now been free floated and bedded, but that is it. If that is what he got using an expensive custom gun, I'm doing better than I thought. Noticed the same thing in an article that appeared in Hodgdon's 2022 Annual manual. The accuracy of my loads as good or better than the expert writer got. Perspective.

Published in 2008. I think it’s in its fourth or fifth printing by now.
I read Waters book for the technique and methods, not the “data.” I don’t plan to do things “the Waters way,” and that’s fine. You don’t have to either unless you want to. The smartest people on the planet might disagree but, for me, there’s wisdom that goes beyond practical application. I just like to know how things are done, especially by the people who have found success doing them, even if I don’t ever plan on doing that thing myself.
Enjoy the book.

 

[buck460XVR]

Is "Pet Load" a valid concept?

....of course it is. But my "Pet Loads" may not be yours, nor will Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" always be yours. Nor do I think that "Pet Loads" are always handloads. I have some factory Winchester shotgun shells that are my "Pet Loads" for Turkey hunting, because they produce the best patterns out of my ol' Model '97.