Did I pick the wrong rifle to hand load for?

[Bart B.]

Speed tests of known accurate ammo is a waste of time and ammo. Good lots of commercial match ammo can easily have a 100 fps spread across several rifles all shooting it 1/3 MOA at 100 yards.

If the ammo company says their ammo shoots 2789 fps in their barrel, it'll shoot up to dozens of fps faster or slower in yours.

Accuracy afficianados don't care what bullet leaves the starting blocks the fastest then wins the race to the target. They want them to land on a small area; placing last in the race means nothing.

Two rules of thumb are paramount for accuracy afficianado's ammo (AAA grade); properly full length size fired cases and put only stick/extruded powder in them.

Most commercial ammo uses powders bulk) that are not available to us. So you will have to find the powder that is closest to what they use.

I would like to know who started this perpetuating myth that's decades old. Just because they buy it in bulk at wholesale prices doesn't mean it's different.

They also buy primers and bullets in bulk quantities. Are they better than what we comsuers buy from retailers? Let's start a rumor about that.

 

[rskent]

Speed tests of known accurate ammo is a waste of time and ammo.

You have to start somewhere Bart. If a load that shoots good in your gun is a Matchking (at whatever speed a Black hills 69 is ) then why wouldn’t you want to start there?

Just asking

 

[Bart B.]

Well, one reason is, the odds of anyone's bullet shooting as fast in my barrel as it did in theirs is pretty small. Everyone in some company working up a load for their powder doesn't use the same lots of components any customer would nor the same barrel and chamber. Nor would the barrel and its action be held the same; fixed universal receiver versus hand held rifle against ones shoulder, which these two alone can have over a 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity. The hand held version would have much slower bullets than the fixed version.

A given load in a given rifle can easily have near 100 fps difference in average muzzle velocity as its shot across several people.

 

[jmorris]

Well, one reason is, the odds of anyone's bullet shooting as fast in my barrel as it did in theirs is pretty small.

From what I have read, he has a factory load that shoots better than what he has come up with so far.

Attempting to copy something that is known to work isn't the worst idea I have ever hear of.

 

[horsey300]

You have to start somewhere Bart. If a load that shoots good in your gun is a Matchking (at whatever speed a Black hills 69 is ) then why wouldn’t you want to start there?

Just asking

One speed with one powder will be very different and possibly more dangerous with a different powder, of the factory .223 loads I've pulled there have been a lot of flake and ball powders, my stick powders provide different pressures. also, the accuracy load for my h322 is not the same speed as my accuracy load with my aa2015, nosler and Sierra both publish accuracy loads within their load data, nosler includes best load from each powder. With the same bullet, you can have MANY different accuracy speeds varying by powder. To truly copy that factory load at that speed, you need that powder, otherwise you're giving yourself false hope. If I were going to try to copy a factory load without knowing the powder, I'd review every data source to see which powders could produce the box listed speed. Then pull one load to see if it was ball or flake or stick etc, then narrow that down on my list of powders giving such speeds, play with magnum and std primers, and work up a ladder with each of the powders that fit the bill I.e. ball powders capable of 2800fps without compression with a 69 gr bullet. OR skip the headache and pick up 2 or 3 powders and primers and play with the 68 gr bullets until you find what you're looking for. Just from hodgdon alone there are 15 loads for a 69 gr pill.

 

[Laphroaig]

I would like to know who started this perpetuating myth

In the past there might have been some loadings with powders not available to the public. The Hornady Light Magnum series comes to mind. But even they have started to sell their Superperformance powders to the public.

Just another thought, but IMO virgin brass can make a difference too. I see that Black Hills sells both new and "remanufactured" .223 ammo. I wonder what flavor the OP was using to get those excellent results?

 

[bikemutt]

Just out of Curiosity, what is your powder charge process? if you want consistency for sub .5" MOA groups your measuring needs to be on par. Are you measuring each charge?

Wreck-n-Crew, I use a Hornady Lock-n-Load powder dispenser with it's own scale. And, I've used an old fashion beam balance to confirm the machine's accuracy. Every charge is identical according to the device. Occasionally it will throw a heavy charge but it beeps loudly and will not throw another charge until it's reset.

 

[Rule3]

Speed tests of known accurate ammo is a waste of time and ammo. Good lots of commercial match ammo can easily have a 100 fps spread across several rifles all shooting it 1/3 MOA at 100 yards.

If the ammo company says their ammo shoots 2789 fps in their barrel, it'll shoot up to dozens of fps faster or slower in yours.

Accuracy afficianados don't care what bullet leaves the starting blocks the fastest then wins the race to the target. They want them to land on a small area; placing last in the race means nothing.

Two rules of thumb are paramount for accuracy afficianado's ammo (AAA grade); properly full length size fired cases and put only stick/extruded powder in them.

I would like to know who started this perpetuating myth that's decades old. Just because they buy it in bulk at wholesale prices doesn't mean it's different.

They also buy primers and bullets in bulk quantities. Are they better than what we consumers buy from retailers? Let's start a rumor about that.

I guess I got it on the Internet. It sure has been cited many many times.

So manufacturers use exactly the same powders that we buy??

Never said they were better or worse

The only one I know of was Bullseye 84 which was not available to us until they released it as Power Pistol.

So please tell us what powders all the big names use and then we can duplicate their ammo down to the grain. Also what powder is in the Black Hills ammo that the OP is trying to duplicate? You can tell just by looking at it?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=573151

 

[bikemutt]

I neck size with gorgeous results but I don't do something that you do. I sincerely advise you to load 20 of your best handload and SKIP THE CRIMP, test em against 20 crimped, I'm getting ragged holes pretty consistently, however if your crimped rounds fare better than uncrimped, I will tip my hat to you for beating the odds! Neck tension alone keeps the bullet aligned straighter than a crimp, the crimp provides the slightest pinch point to cant slightly off. I am sure all the factory loads are crimped but you're not in a factory so there's no reason not to give it a try.

horsey300, thanks for the tip, I had one of the old masters at the range suggest the same thing, I'll give it a shot. This old guy gets mad at himself if he's > 1/2" at 200 yards

 

[bikemutt]

In the past there might have been some loadings with powders not available to the public. The Hornady Light Magnum series comes to mind. But even they have started to sell their Superperformance powders to the public.

Just another thought, but IMO virgin brass can make a difference too. I see that Black Hills sells both new and "remanufactured" .223 ammo. I wonder what flavor the OP was using to get those excellent results?

Laphroaig, I'm using Black Hills Remanufactured ammo. I found it at a LGS some time back and bought a box of 50, it shot really well in my more-or-less precision Wilson Combat-barreled AR15. I tried it in the Savage 10 which also liked it. At the time I did not reload, I found a blowout deal on the ammo at Palmetto State Armory and bought 1000 rounds.

Oddly, neither of my battle guns care for it, Aug and X95, they seem to like green tip and more pedestrian fodder.

 

[bikemutt]

Here's a raw and measured picture of that last group with the Black Hills, I guess it was even tighter than I first estimated. Not at all suggesting they all look like this but, most of them are close enough that this one did not surprise me. And yes, it rains a lot here

 

[Laphroaig]

Wow, if you have 1000 rds. of ammo that shoots like that I'd say that you're sittin' pretty!

 

[jmorris]

You can tell just by looking at it?

I don't just look at a powder and assume it is "X" powder as many look similar. That said, with the powder in hand I can make some educated guesses and test to see if I am right or wrong.

This source is pretty good help too.

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=805

It's worth noting that some of the powders in the hundreds listed above are no longer available.

 

[Bart B.]

So please tell us what powders all the big names use and then we can duplicate their ammo down to the grain

That's a waste of time. The only thing you would duplicate is the powder charge weight. It alone causes about 75% of the muzzle velocity spread. And the same charge weight across all commercial powder lot numbers can easily cause a 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity. If 10 people shot the same rifle and ammo, the muzzle velocity would be different for each; sometimes as much as 60 to 70 fps.

Whatcha gonna do about the remaining 25%?

You'll need to borrow their barrel and the thing that held it to duplicate along with the powder lot, primhuher lot, cases with the same bullet extraction force when fired.

Trying to duplicate any velocity someone used for any objective is a long list of bad things to do

The same bullet will shoot very accurate over several hundred fps velocity spread. All it has to do is spin in the right rpm band to keep its long axis parallel to the trajectory.

Its a waste of time to duplicate anyone's muzzle velocity they get in search of any thing except to duplicate their trajectory; in their environment only. The only thing it will do is make your bullets leave as fast as theirs did.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I guess I got it on the Internet. It sure has been cited many many times.

So manufacturers use exactly the same powders that we buy??

Never said they were better or worse

The only one I know of was Bullseye 84 which was not available to us until they released it as Power Pistol.

So please tell us what powders all the big names use and then we can duplicate their ammo down to the grain. Also what powder is in the Black Hills ammo that the OP is trying to duplicate? You can tell just by looking at it?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=573151

This is my understanding also. I'd hate to perpetuate misinformation as I too truly believed that some manufacturers do use proprietary formulations of power. It's easier to say some do rather than who don't.

I'd love to have inside information as to what commercial load use any of the powder available to the average handloader.

I hope this is no too far off topic. This discussion has smacked of formulation questions from the beginning. However, it would seem logically odd to mass produce a powder solely for handloaders with what one would assume to be an abundance of commercial powder unless the production run was already proprietary.

Either way, I've been wrong before. I would like to know the truth, if possible.

 

[Bart B.]

However, it would seem logically odd to mass produce a powder solely for handloaders with what one would assume to be an abundance of commercial powder unless the production run was already proprietary.

Powder lots are tested for uniformity based on specs. Those with a narrow range of performance about the standard company specs call for are canistered for commercial sales. Sometimes they'll blend two or more lots. The lots outside of commercial use specs are sent to arsenals or other companies in bulk (100 pound drums?) making their own ammo for retail where it's tested for how much to meet their ammo specs. My only test of such stuff was weighing powder charges of IMR4895 in 7.62 NATO M118 match ammo. It had over a 1.5 grain spread across a dozen or so lots. That's what it took to make pressure 50,000 CUP +/- 2000 CUP and velocity 2550 fps +/- 30 fps at 26 yards. My guess that the same powder in commercial lots under a Sierra 175 HPMK in a .308 Win case shot in the same rifle would have a 1/2 grain or more spread to get the same velocity.

I've never been concerned about exact muzzle velocity for any load.

 

[Bart B.]

I had one of the old masters at the range suggest the same thing, I'll give it a shot. This old guy gets mad at himself if he's > 1/2" at 200 yards

Really?

The benchrest 5-shot groups aggregate (average of several groups) records at 200 yards include some groups as big as almost an inch. I suspect some miscommunication.

 

[jmorris]

I suspect some miscommunication.

Never underestimate the grumpiness of old guys...they can be mad even if they do everything right.

I know some that would complain about the taxes if you gave them a winning lottery ticket.

 

[Bart B.]

So please tell us what powders all the big names use and then we can duplicate their ammo down to the grain.

Thats the least important thing I would like to know for the bullet used. Bore and groove diameters to 4 places and the chamber leade angle are the two most critical. Powder type next then primer used. Using that stuff, I could probably duplicate the accuracy over a 1 grain spread in charge weights with several stick powders in the same burn range. Most commercial ammo's tested at 100 yards.

 

[Jim Watson]

The only one I know of was Bullseye 84

Ever hear of IMR 4895, 4831, 7828? All were trade powders before they were sold at retail. And it took Hodgdon selling the first two from war surplus to get DuPont off the dime.
I remember an old old G&A banner headline: "This may be the powder Winchester uses for 180 gr .30-06." Inside, H414, now known to be Win. 760.

Powder lots are tested for uniformity based on specs. Those with a narrow range of performance about the standard company specs call for are canistered for commercial sales. Sometimes they'll blend two or more lots. The lots outside of commercial use specs are sent to arsenals or other companies in bulk (100 pound drums?) making their own ammo for retail where it's tested for how much to meet their ammo specs.

Phil Sharpe said a wartime lot of 4895 was a carload of 50,000 to 60,000 lbs in 150 lb kegs.

And while the powder mill sells off spec powder to an OEM loader who can adjust for it, they sure don't throw away on-spec powder if they have more than they have canister orders for. You might get ammo loaded with the same stuff you can buy. One gunzine writer said his samples of the then-new 7mm 08 Remington were loaded with a Ball powder at a load level he had found suitable for Win 748 in the wildcat version. So he reloaded some factory brass with the same weight of canister 748 and it shot indistinguishably from factory fresh.

 

[bikemutt]

Really?

The benchrest 5-shot groups aggregate (average of several groups) records at 200 yards include some groups as big as almost an inch. I suspect some miscommunication.

This particular guy is shooting 22-250 exclusively, he's a committed Prairie Dog hunter. I've seen some of his groups, never measured them with ruler, but they look real tight to me. He complains about replacing barrels a lot as well, he really is kinda grumpy

 

[Walkalong]

Well, never, or rarely ever, shooting over 1/2" @ 200 yards for five shot groups is pretty outstanding......

Yep, .22-250 is rough on barrels,, especially if you are going to replace them when the guilt edged accuracy is gone. I am guessing, but 1500 to 2000 rounds?

If I had a known bullet at a known velocity that shot great in my gun, I see no reason not to try that for a starting point. Yes, you don't know what speed powder etc, but you have to start somewhere. That said, I just start in the middle and work up until it shoots great, or I give up on that combination of powder & bullet.

And, as Bart has posted numerous times, you want a load that shoots great over a reasonably weight spread for the powder used. Shoot for the middle of that and don't worry about some small variation in powder drop weights.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note on accuracy and powder weight spread.

I shoot a 55gr Sierra bullet #1390 from a Howa 1500 bolt action rifle. I can load it with 25.0gr or 26.0gr Varget and see no difference in accuracy between the two. Only the velocity changes. I would've though there would be a noticeable change but I saw none.

 

[bikemutt]

OK, I picked up a box of SMK 68 grain bullets and decided to check a few things out before I play around.

I used my Hornady OAL gauge to measure the length of the cartridge when the ogive touches the lands. Just for grins I compared a brand new Black Hills (BH) cartridge to this imaginary cartridge. The BH bullet is clearly seated well off the lands.

Measured length to lands of the SMK in the gauge is 1.995", measured length of the BH round is 1.897". If we believe the SMK bullets BH used are identical to the ones I bought at a LGS, that implies the BH is seated 0.098" off the lands.

Furthermore the COAL of the BH is 2.242", the imaginary (resting on the lands) is 2.378". In other words, the BH is within the maximum COAL of 2.260" whereas the imaginary round is 0.118" over the maximum COAL. If I backed off the lands by 0.005 that would still leave my hand load 0.113" longer than maximum. I don't know how important the maximum SAAMI COAL is in a bolt rifle, I'm guessing it might cause feeding problems in auto loaders.

In any event, the BH round clearly has a respectable amount of freebore in this particular rifle.

So, should I start with the SMKs seated similar to the BH, see how that goes and sneak up on less freebore? Or play the kiss-the-lands game and increase freebore to see if I can meet or beat the BH that way?

The bottom one is the BH cartridge.

 

[farmerboy78]

I use 77gr nosler custom comp bullets in my white oak .223... they shoot slightly better than the smk and they cost less. I use wcc and lc brass and cci primers... you really need to pick up some ramshot tac, black hills uses tac if I'm not mistaken... that powder will give you more velocity than varget, just as accurate or more, and loads will be more consistent. My loads are <3/8" groups if I do my part, consistently! 77gr cc, lc brass, cci primers, 23.6gr tac, coal 2.26"