Is picture ID on a DL and a CCL an absolute must to ensure public safety?

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Ok. How do you answer this then? What if the KKK decided that from now on they would only have photos on their ID taken with full hoods on that cover the face? It is part of their view of their religion.... Would you allow that? Would you allow them to drive with the full hood/mask on??
The KKK is not a religion, and even if it were, there is a compelling state interest in keeping these violent prone people from going around masked -- they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the masks were used to hide their identities when they committed murder. Remember, I'm not saying religion trumps everything; just that someone give me a compelling state interest.

What's the compelling state interest in demasking Muslim women?

In any event, letting them drive with masks is not the same issue as making them get a photo demasked. No one, but you and Delmar, are suggesting that she be forced to take off her mask in order to drive.

Actually, as I menioned above, due the KKK, my state and many others have laws against appearing masked in public regardless of whether you are driving. You can't wear a face covering on the sidewalk. Yet we don't arrest Muslim women who violate that law -- we exempt them on religious grounds.

As for rolling down her windows and wind blowing the veil into her eyes, that's what bobby pins are for. And maybe we shouild forbid long haired people from driving. In any event, like Delmar, you are changing the subject from the photo to why she shouldn't be allowed to drive at all.

As for the Osama bit, now were getting to the real issue here, aren't we? If this were a woman from some extreme Christian sect that kept their faces veiled, no one would be saying she had some Osama-like ulterior motive.
 
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That she is, in fact, the holder of the license.
And the vital state interest in this is....?
Can't touch her to take finger prints (prohibited to be touched by anyone but male relation),
Really? Or is that prohibited to be touched by any male not her relation? There's a big difference.
retinal scan for her only isn't feasible, etc.
Actually, it is, but that's another debate.
If allowed, it would be easy to swap licenses with other hijab-clad women, or men for that matter, and it would be virtually impossible to tell them apart.
Yeah, my wife does that all the time with her twin sister if one of them forgets her ID and we're getting into a bar. I'm lucky that my wife still sometimes gets carded in her mid-30s. :) (Not that I'm suggesting my wife is "hijab-clad," just that she regularly swaps licenses with someone that bouncers think is her ;) ).

Actually, when she was in college, my wife gave out copies of her older brother's birth certificate to many of her male friends, who got photo drivers licenses in his name. Pretty stupid on her part, but it does demonstrate the folly in thinking that a photo proves that the person holding the license is the person named.
 
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And by the way, it is both laughable and sad to suggest that photo drivers licenses are somehow necessary to preventing terrorism -- the 9/11 terrorists used photo drivers licenses as part of their "equipment" ... the photo DLs helped them.

That's why there is a debate about whether DLs should be universal IDs.
 
So if it is OK for her to have a licese without an identifiable photograph on it, is it OK for a LEO, assuming there is LEO contact, to detain her for as long as it takes to positively identify her through other means? As long as it takes, keep in mind, is a pretty vague.
 
Erik,

Yes if:

1) There is a compelling reason to identify her.

2) "As long as it takes" is not abused -- we detain women for body searches now until a woman officer is available to pat them down. Any wait longer than the typical wait for searches might be an abuse absent a really good excuse on the police's part.

This is not new territory.
 
The Geek Weighs in...

For starters, I believe that this society has generally accepted that driving is a privilege, and not a right.

The States asserted it, and the People accepted it, or at least weren't able to mount an effective opposition to it.

That was a bad move, IMO, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it ultimately and directly set the stage for our current state of Infringement of RKBA.

The most frequent line of reasoning is more or less like this:

Cars are big, powerful, and potentially dangerous pieces of machinery that require special knowledge to operate safely, and therefore the state has an interest in public safety to ensure yada yada yada.

Horses are also big, powerful, and potentially dangerous animals that require special knowledge to "operate" safely.


At one time, horse knowledge was as common as driving knowledge is today.

At one time, horses could be misused, "driven" too fast, and accidents DID happen, people WERE hurt, and lives WERE lost.

To my knowledge, this did not result in horse training initiatives, licensure, or any of that.

Knowledge gap: What did they do when someone negliglently injured another with a horse or wagon? My _assumption_ is that if warranted, charges of negligent whatever was appropriate were brought, and that a separate "horse offense" wasn't necessary.

Probably the next most frequent argument in favor of driving as privilege is the issue that the "privilege" extend to the use of use of public roads and highways, and that you can drive without license on your own property, to which I reply:

Um, last time I checked, it was OUR taxes that paid for said public roads and highways, and therefore we have the right to use them.

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Shifting gears a bit
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It IS generally accepted that we enjoy a "right of travel" on the public byways. Frequently, the snide comeback is "very well, then you can WALK, or ride a horse".

There are a lot of flaws with that position. First: pedestrians and horses are generally prohibitted on the highway, and even if they weren't, it'd be a bad idea to walk or ride there anyway.

Furthermore, we find ourselves living in a world that has evolved over the last 100 years around the automobile, to the degree that it is largely impractical to carry on normally with your life without an automobile*. It isn't practical to work, obtain food, or engage in all the normal pursuits of our culture. Being denied the "privilege" of driving isn't like being banned from the movies; it has severe lasting consequences in your life, and that is why many people who have their licenses revoked or suspended have little practical alternative to ignoring that fact, lest they lose their jobs and ability to provide for their families.



*Urban areas are the significant exception to this, but don't tell me to move to the city, as you simply don't have the right to dictate how or where I shall live.

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Shifting gears a bit
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And by advocating for driving as privilege, what are we defending here, anyway? Under what circumstances is the "privilege" revoked?

Typically, it's revoked "in the interest of public safety" for:

-Serious crimes: generally vehicular homicide and mayhem, based on the theory that a person who did that once may tend to do it again.

-DWI/DUI based on the theory that such irresponsible behavior is SO dangerous that its repeat must be prevented and

-Accumulation of "too many points", based on the theory that the driver in question demonstrates disregard for safety, and is therefore a menace to society. (aside: we all know that speeding is a crock. Limits are preposterously low, and I've NEVER seen a policeman doing 55, and in some places, ticketing is blatantly and openly considered a REVENUE activity, with minimal or no pretense paid to "safety".)

-Underage drinking, EVEN IF THERE IS NO AUTO INVOLVED. This is based on a nebulous theory I don't pretend to understand.

In all these cases, there is punishment, ranging from fines to prison, and a revocation based entirely on what a person MIGHT do. In some cases the prediction of future behavior is well founded, and in other cases it isn't, and in some, it's outright suspect to say the least.

But certainly, for good or bad, the precedent of curtailing rights/privileges is now solidly established, where it was not before.


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Winding it up
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Acceptance of this has set the stage, and is directly relevant to our current situation with RKBA.

The People has accepted an assertion of the State it probably shouldn't have, re: driving.

Thus conditioned, many people are starting to accept another Assertion of the State, that the RKBA is at the pleasure of the state, and this they MUST NOT DO.

Even the language is similiar: Unlicensed firearms owners are BAD, just like unlicensed drivers. Unregistered firearms are also bad, they're out of control, just like unregistered cars.


It's too late for cars. Soon, it'll be too late for guns, unless we engage in continuous action to engage the levers and mechanisms of power to change the outcome.

Phew.

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Final Note:
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Oddly enough, the dark and fascist state of NJ passes out licenses to people over 25 WITHOUT A PHOTO, which reminds me, it's time to renew.
 
Can't touch her to take finger prints (prohibited to be touched by anyone but male relation),
Yeah, that was a poorly worded sentance. Should have been "touched by any but a male relation."

My concern wasn't terrorism. My concern is whether the person behind the wheel is licensed to drive or simply borrowed, perhaps even stolen, the license and/or vehicle. It's a primitive check, but quick, effective, and cheap.
 
Destructor.

The point is that she can be touched by strange women, and thus fingerprinted (and biometric finger scans like those now used on the Mexican border for newly-issued day-worker passes do not require someone else to touch the subject).

My terrorism comment wasn't directed at you.

Your last paragraph is the closest anyone has come in 4 pages of posts to giving me anything remotely resembling a compelling state interest in a photo DL.

But I'm still not willing to throw out this woman's 1A/14th rights based on such a weak (IMO) interest:

1) DLs don't increase safety given the laughably low bar set for getting one.
2) DLs are laughably easy to fake, duplicate, etc.
3) States without photo ID do not have more dangerous roadways.
 
cuchulainn's parting shot

If this woman's rights are not being violated by forcing her to go against her religious convictions in order to be allowed to drive (no one is forcing her to do this; she can choose to forgo the privilege of driving)...

...Then your RKBA is not violated when the state forces you disarm when driving (no one is forcing you to do this; you can choose to forgo the privilege of driving).
 
Then your RKBA is not violated when the state forces you disarm when driving (no one is forcing you to do this; you can choose to forgo the privilege of driving).

Interesting point. And it is worth mentioning that Florida statutes explicitely state that this Muslim woman with a completely covered face can carry a firearm in her vehicle as long as it is in a closed container such as the glovebox or console. One wonders if the State really believes allowing her to drive without a photograph on her Driver's License is more dangerous to the public safety than allowing her to be armed. :scrutiny:
 
FWIW, every Muslim country that issues passports requires a facial photo. Women do cover their hair, but NO VEIL.

The religion thing is BS. Local Mufi and Imams have said as much, though some said there is a 'weak' opinion that she should cover her face, it is not mandatory. I have several Muslim friends (some pretty religious), who also confirm that the veil may be custom, but not mandatory.

IMNSHO, she knew that this is a secular Western country when she came here, it is not up to us to accomodate her, she needs to figure out how to get a long. No one is preventing her from exercising her religion, but we do have a legitimate need to be able to ascertain that you are who you say you are, and the law pertainng to driving says 'photo id'. Get over it or don't drive.
 
Ya know, the technology to put pictures on state-issued DLs and other IDs existed for a LONG time before it became common place... More than 50 years, actually.

I got my first photo DL in the middle 1980s -- my Grandfather had his picture ID from the plant where he worked during WW II. It was laminated very nicely.

I'm not really buying that this is a critical national security necessity.
 
Mike in VA: custom, but not mandatory.
Being a "mere" custom makes it no less a protected religious expression. Are you saying that only mandatory religious rites and practicies are protected under the First Amendment?

Mike in VA: No one is preventing her from exercising her religion,
And no one would be preventing you from exercising your RKBA with a ban on carrying while driving, right?

"Get over it or don't drive," indeed.
 
Right, I've got a VA CWP, do it all the time. The fact that I need a permit is onerous, to be sure, but I digress . . .

Back to the chase. As I said, she knew this was a secular, pluralistic Western society when she came here, and it is NOT our job to accommodate her, she needs to figure out how to function HERE.

In our society, those who cover their faces are looked upon as bandits or robbers, someone with something to hide. She can practice her religion (approx. 7 million Muslims here do -), she can preserve her ethnicity, but if she wants to be American, she needs to assimilate to the degreee necessary to be a functional, contributing member of society.

If she wants to live in a 'pure' Muslim society, she should have stayed home. JMNSHO.
 
Mike, she is home. She, formerly known as Sandra Kellar, is a recent convert to Islam.

Somebody here said she has a criminal record. I can't find any information on that, but if it's true, we've got somebody using religion to pull a fast one. She moved to a different state, changed her name, and refuses to be photographed for a new ID card. Sounds like a wholesale change of identitiy to me.

CNN lists a number of conservative Muslim Arab countries that do not allow veiling for picture ID.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/28/license.veil.ap/

She really doesn't have a legitimate religious basis for her argument.
 
Mike in VARight, I've got a VA CWP, do it all the time. The fact that I need a permit is onerous, to be sure, but I digress
That's not what I asked. I asked if you would consider it a violation of your rights if the state (VA in your case) BANNED you from driving armed. Period. Even CCW holders would be banned from carrying guns while partaking in the privilege of driving. Got it? No guns in cars whatsoever. None. Nada. Your CCW would be invalid in a car. You could be arrested for driving while packing even though you had your valid CCW permit in your wallet.

Driving is a privilege, so the state can make CCW holders give up their RKBA and leave their guns at home (or in the trunk), right?
Mike in VA In our society, those who cover their faces are looked upon as bandits or robbers, someone with something to hide.
That is an utterly bogus statement, bordering on an ad hominem against her. Americans know full well that she wears the veil for religious reasons. Maybe one in 10-million Americans would be stupid enough to think she was hiding her face with criminal or nefarious intent, and 99% of them would be under 5 years old.
Destructor I can't find any information on that, but if it's true, we've got somebody using religion to pull a fast one.
Maybe. Maybe not. But you are making an ad hominem argument against her, nothing more.

This particular woman's character is irrellevant to whether Muslim women -- in general -- have the right to refuse to violate their 1st Amt rights (religious expression) in order to enjoy the immunities and privileges of a citizen (see 14th Amt).

You are really reminding me of the gun grabbers who argue that there is no 2nd Amt right for individuals because Miller and Emerson were both bad guys.

In fact, forget Muslim women at all for a moment and ask yourself:

Should the state have the power to force you to forgo exercising your rights in order to enjoy the immunities and privileges of a citizen?

For example, should the state have the power to disarm you before allowing you the privilege of getting on a public road?
 
The brutal irony in all this elaborated debate is that a devout Moslem woman ain't about to grant you the freedoms you, a freethinking Constitutionalist, are so fervid to grant her. Argue your way around that.
 
I'm attacking her motivations, which I believe are relevant here. This is a specific case after all.

The premises of her argument, that Islam forbids her face being photographed, are false. That's relevant, too.
You are really reminding me of the gun grabbers who argue that there is no 2nd Amt right for individuals because Miller and Emerson were both bad guys.
I don't think I've ever heard that argument.
 
Cuch-
I understood your question, I was jerking your chain, but yes, I would have a big problem with your premise. I don't equate the right to self defense with religious custom. She is not beingdenied the right to practice her religion, she is being required to provide positive identification for a number of legitimate reasons that trump her backwards notion of 'modesty'.

Regarding banditry, the large infux of Muslims and corresponding number of veiled Muslim women on the streets of America is a relatively recent phenomena. Traditionally, we like to be able to look people in the eye and see their face when we do business and otherwise interact. I don't think I'm off base with my opinion that Americans tend to feel that people who hide their face may likely have other things to hide also.

As previously stated, every Muslim counrty that issues passports require full facial photos on the ID for men and women. How do I know? I have friends who work at State Dept and with US Customs (you know, the folks that check ID at the door, i.e. the international arrivals terminal at Dulles airport), who have assured me that this is so. Obviously, they can show their face when the 'have to'.

I have flagellated this deceased equine enough and will stick with my opinions for now: She's a whiner pullin' a fast one.
 
Longeyes The brutal irony in all this elaborated debate is that a devout Moslem woman ain't about to grant you the freedoms you, a freethinking Constitutionalist, are so fervid to grant her. Argue your way around that.
Eh? I do not see a reason to try to argue around that. I simply choose to stand up for the rights of someone who might not stand up for me. I'd argue to stop someone from disarming Sarah Brady. Despite her gun grabbing ways, she has just as strong an RKBA as we do. I don't think people lose their rights just for attacking others' rights. (I'd argue to protect your rights, despite your unwillingness to stand up for this woman's rights ;) )
Destructo6 I'm attacking her motivations, which I believe are relevant here. This is a specific case after all.
OK, but by using the differences in this specific case to argue that there is no rights violation, you raise the question of whether a Muslim woman of lily-white character could mount a similar challenge. In fact, if this woman's bad ways are what kill her argument, then you actually are strengthening my argument that Muslim-woman in general would be protected from being forced to unmask in order to drive.

Of course, I'd like to hear a valid argument about how this woman's prior acts rise to the level that justifies violating her First Amendment rights.
Destructo6 The premises of her argument, that Islam forbids her face being photographed, are false. That's relevant, too.
No it isn't relevant, with all due respect. Optional religious practices are just as protected as mandatory practices.
Destructo6 I don't think I've ever heard that argument.
If you can stomach it, go look at what VPC and Brady said about Emerson's alleged domestic violence.
Mike in VA I don't equate the right to self defense with religious custom.
So then you'd have no problem whatsoever with the cops raiding churches today to put a stop to the practice of serving alcohol to minors, right?
Mike in VA She is not being denied the right to practice her religion, she is being required to provide positive identification for a number of legitimate reasons that trump her backwards notion of 'modesty'.
1) Being "backwardly" modest is part of how she practices her religion and the state is denying her the ability to do that. How can you argue she is not being denied the right to practice her religion?

2) That's the same logic grabbers use when they say licensing and registration are not RKBA violations because you still get to have guns.

3) Calling a right that you want to infringe "backwards" is straight out of the grabbers playbook.
Mike in VA I don't think I'm off base with my opinion that Americans tend to feel that people who hide their face may likely have other things to hide also.
Perhaps they feel that way about people with stockings over their heads, bandanas over mouths or wearing hockey mask. But Americans are savvy enough to make distinctions about other forms of face covering. Anyone with a TV (there are one or two sets in the USA) can recognize Muslim dress. They understand it is not worn with nefarious intent. Your argument might have held water in the 1880s

On a cold day, do Americans run around squealing in fear at all the "bandits" walking around with scarves covering their faces?
Mike in VA As previously stated, every Muslim counrty that issues passports require full facial photos on the ID for men and women.
Well what did your research subjects say about how the photographing and checking are done? Do strange men take the photos? Do strange men do the checking? I've acknowledged various times the validity of a compromise that allows her to be photographed with accommodations that the photos and checking be done by women.

Hey, we accommodate red-blooded American women's "backwards" notions of modesty by calling in women cops to frisk them (frisking implies a greater safety need than ID checking). Let's accommodate this woman.
 
I do not see a reason to try to argue around that. I simply choose to stand up for the rights of someone who might not stand up for me. I'd argue to stop someone from disarming Sarah Brady. Despite her gun grabbing ways, she has just as strong an RKBA as we do. I don't think people lose their rights just for attacking others' rights. (I'd argue to protect your rights, despite your unwillingness to stand up for this woman's rights

That is very noble but to me more than a bit culturally suicidal. I'm a pragmatist. Survival rules. Defend freedom for people who would toss aside that very principle for others? No, sir. I think the time in America when we could blithely ignore the long-term consequences of various cultural and social decisions is past. We are harvesting the America that lay in the seeds of our neglectfulness over the last three, four decades.
 
cuchulainn

Good one on Paul's Horse. Maybe everyone else got it too?

I have had a driver's license for many years and it is only recently that a photo has been required.
Can somebody explain while the world is safer because of the photo?
 
Cuch-
I guess turn-abbout is fair play -
Well what did your research subjects say about how the photographing and checking are done? Do strange men take the photos? Do strange men do the checking?
I have no idea if the men were strange, or if women did the photos. Don't know, don't care, the broader point is that they've got to have their picture taken.
So then you'd have no problem whatsoever with the cops raiding churches today to put a stop to the practice of serving alcohol to minors, right?
The Church did that by itself, I guess with the concent of the congregation at large. A sip of sacramental wine for a minor communicant (with parental consent) doesn't offend me, alter boys guzzling in the sacristy (BT,DT), or with the encouragement of the priest, does. The state has no interest in this until it becomes abusive.
Hey, we accommodate red-blooded American women's "backwards" notions of modesty by calling in women cops to frisk them (frisking implies a greater safety need than ID checking).
No problem. I think it's entirely appropriate to have female officers do a thorough frisk where circumstances permit. However, it is not always reasonable to do this in the field under trying circumstances. At that point, I'm willing to rely on the officer's professionalism and JUDGMENT to do the right thing. Not always a perfect bet, but better than ignoring some ***** in a burka hiding an RPG, than failing over issues of false modesty.

Frankly, sir, I find your 'absolutist' positions to be a bit too much, your analogies weak and spurious, your arguements to be overly emotional, and hardly even pragmatic. Let's focus on what 'works'.

Vote early, vote often. M2
 
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