Is recoil relative or is it just me?

[bigalexe]

Is recoil relative to the shooter or is it just me? This is also relative more to pistols than long-guns but it still applies. Please understand I am not trying to brag, but wondering about training or tolerance buildup.

The reason i am asking is that I hear a lot of people talk about lightweight shooters and suggesting really low recoil stuff like .22lr for starting out with pistols. I weigh a whopping 80 lbs on a good day wearing a hoodie and jeans and am 5'7", I can lift a little over a gallon of milk comfortably.

Now I like me some big bang, but also do not wish to injure myself. For a shotgun I have a Mossberg 500 12-gauge that I use to shoot trap, 3" Turkey loads, and 2 3/4" Hornady SST Sabot Slugs out of. I can shoot AR-15's in .223 and .40S&W Pistols all day long without injury as long as I do everything correctly. I have shot a 30/30 lever action and a .45ACP Glock and walked away unscathed which is more than I can say for the targets I was aiming at, granted I do get tired or sore after a few shots with these large guns.

Now where I am confused is consider that I am a small and pretty weak guy, so why does it seem that shooters seem to think that small people necessarily have to shy away from large calibers and stick to 20 gauge shotguns, .22lr pistols and .22-250 centerfire guns for fear of injury?

Sorry if I am a bit jumbled, I hope you get what I am asking.

 

[Nushif]

I honestly don't know.

My wife for instance loves her 12 gauge and the .45. And she isn't uber strong for sure. But I know people who shoot that very same Taurus .45 and put it down after three shots claiming it recoils too much.
I also own a small 1911 (The New Agent in 9mm) and I've had buig guys who are just blazing away with their uber .45 loads put that thing down after one mag.

It really does seem that recoil is highly subjective.

 

[Shadow 7D]

yeah the sensation is relative, but it never hurts to have good form and a nice recoil pad.

 

[scythefwd]

You say you get sore or tired after "granted I do get tired or sore after a few shots with these large guns".

That is exactly why we recommend smaller calibers to start off with. If the person is an experienced shooter, they will already know what they can handle. If they have to ask, it's better to send them in the direction of lighter hitting stuff so they can get more time behind the trigger without fatigue becoming an issue. The longer you can shoot comfortably, the more time you have to work on your form and get it right. You can build a tolerance, but that doesn't mean you have to do it all at once.

The recoil of a .45 acp isn't that much different from a 9mm. It all depends on the springs in the gun, but generally they aren't that far off. I don't consider either one of those guns to be hard recoiling.... Now I'm a bit afraid to touch off more than a few full house .357's though. All of that said, good form will allow you to tolerate more recoil. Just because you can tolerate it ok, doesn't mean you couldn't do with some practice in something a little lighter to build up an even greater tolerance.

 

[Hoxviii]

Purely relative.

I'm always confounded by people that comment how full load .357 in an SP101 will, "hurt," or "Wear you out," or how +p in a 642/442 will be, "all you'd want to handle."

Then the people that moan about how bad .308 kicks when I've run over 100 rounds of .30-06 through a synthetic stock rifle in an afternoon and been none the worse for wear.

The only round I've ever shot that I set the gun back down after 3 and said, "Yeah, I'm good," was a set of 405 gn 45-70's loaded to max load (2k fps or so, by the book) out of an 18" Marlin.

For me (YMMV, drastically), if i don't like the recoil of a round or flinch to it, shooting a heavier caliber/more kick and then going to the lighter load cures me. Some people it exacerbates their issue.

You're either recoil sensitive or you're not, exposure has a lot to do with it; a lot more so than size.

 

[Opoche]

I wouldn't worry about injury unless you have poor form. Some firearms are brutal. I figured my giant testicles would protect me from the recoil of 8x56 out of a 7 pound Steyr rifle. I was wrong. Ouch, I had bruises resembling the screws in the buttplate for a few days.
I have a friend who literally weighs less than half my weight and loves the Steyr. He just seems to roll with the recoil better. In some cases I think less mass is better for perceived recoil. Maybe not so much for follow up shots , but in terms of ouch factor, lighter may mean less pain on the shoulder for the rifle.

Meh, different strokes for different folks.

 

[scythefwd]

nushif - ergonomics are killer. A gun that fits you well may not fit someone else at all. They will feel much more of the recoil than you do. The worst sting I have ever felt came from a .22lr derringer. It was about 2 inches in length total.

 

[dougw47]

recoil...

My 3 oldest grandsons...14,12 and 9yrs old all shoot my Ruger .44 mag revolver, the 2 oldest have shot my Yugo Mauser 98 8mm, and my Win. Mod 70 .308...they are slim builds, 14 = 105 lbs, 12 = 110 and 9 = 80. All three started shooting at the same time, 4 years ago. I did not intend for the youngest to start them...but they all three got BB Guns for Christmas that year, and picked up shooting skills and safety very fast.

They went with me down to Lampasas, TX and my Cousin has a shooting range out back on his ranch...I had brought a .22 Ruger 10/22 I bought for my wife for Christmas, and the adults were going to go shoot...when the boys asked if they could go with us. I did not have any objections...to the 2 oldest, but I was a little unsure about the 5 yr old.

I decided he could watch, and the older boys shot taking turns with my Ruger and my Cousin's...doing pretty well. We took a supply of cans, and such...no glass, and a big trash bag to hold the the shot-up targets. They had a blast! We are about to leave when the 5 yr old asked if he could shoot...and when I tried to put him off, the look in his eyes changed my mind.

He weighed about 50 lbs then, and could barely hold the rifle by himself... he missed the target...a 2 liter plastic bottle of water at 25 feet, a couple of times, but when he hit it...I would not have traded that moment for an extra year of life.

All the boys got their own single shot rifles this summer. The oldest shot my 12 guage with #8 dove loads, then the 12yr old...all three had shot mom's .410 before and my old 20 gauge I keep handy for snakes...the 12ga was a new adventure, but a logical progression.

I did not want the 9 yr old to try and shoot the 12 ga. by himself, so I put a rolled up towel between his shoulder and the butt and stood with him holding the shotgun...He was scared and I asked him if he really wanted to do it...he said yes! I told him to hang on tight, close his eyes and squeeze the trigger. BANG! It was another one of those "Precious Moments" and I told him how big he was, but we would stick with the 20 ga. for a few more years with him and he was totally happy. Now he is not scared anymore, respects recoil and believes in himself. I wish I had had someone to do that for me when I was growing up.

When I was in high school ROTC, 15 yrs old and 115 lbs, I shot my first .30-06. Some cadets were smaller than I, but we all learned to shoot and 75% qualified that year in camp. My father and 3 uncles had served in WW2 and they had told me how bad the recoil was on a .30-06...so I was totally apprehensive! I had shot .22's, .30-30, and an Italian 7.35, that belonged to a friend's father...learned to reload helping him, but I was scared to shoot the .30-06. The big day...was anti-climatic, and I have never felt that fear again...until I shot a .460 Weatherby, once! You can keep the hard kickers!

I said all that...to try and give you a comfortable feeling about trying new things. Don't let your light weight keep you from trying new weapons. Buy yourself a P.A.S.T. recoil-reducer pad and use it religiously. If possible, always, always shoot a new weapon standing up...not worrying about hitting the target as much as keeping the bullet in safe territory.

Experience the recoil impulse, hang on tight...but don't try to fight down the weapon from climbing under recoil. Then, if you think you can comfortably shoot off the bench...tackle shooting a target, and don't chastise yourself if the groups are large...remember accuracy is a journey of a lifetime, not a sprint today.

I started my wife like this at 18yrs old...and she is a great shot! She has shot every rifle I own, accurately and well...and for some reason of felt recoil, hates my .270 and will not shoot it today. She has no problem with the .30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag, which is a puzzle to me...and no amount of discussion will change her mind! Lord, I love that woman...have for 44 yrs.

Good luck!

 

[Frank Ettin]

There's recoil and there's recoil.

Actual recoil energy can be calculated for any particular cartridge - gun combination. It is a precise, physical quantity that is a function of bullet weight, powder charge, muzzle velocity and gun weight. But it doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot.

Then there's felt recoil. That is subjective. It's how you perceive the recoil and how well you tolerate and manage it.

And then some folks will be more sensitive to recoil than others. Also, things like gun fit can also affect one's perception of the recoil.

 

[Cosmoline]

The raw recoil energy is quantitative and not relative to the shooter, but to the weight of the firearm. The felt recoil is dependent on the type of firearm and the build of the shooter--plus other factors. It's qualitative.

 

[wep45]

there are various factors that contribute to felt recoil.............firearm type, grips, ammunition, the individual person.

 

[Roswell_Kid]

Got to be individual thing. I had this girlfriend way back when in Nevada. Taught her how to shoot. She quickly (first session) graduated to the .45, loving the sensation. Her favorite? The steel-buttplate M1 Garand. She burned through my entire 30.06 FMJ supply, more than 500 rounds, in one week. 105 pound girl, recoil addict!

 

[oldfool]

I don't buy into the stereotypes either
It never did have anything specific to do with gender or age or size of person

grip, fit, stance, can matter a lot, personal "fit" always matters
but even beyond all that, it is very much a individual thing
the "felt" in felt recoil is a very big factor, but psyche matters just as much

and loudness often matters at least as much as "felt" does, driven by genetic instincts (you are supposed to react to very sudden loud sounds the same way your leg should jump when Doc taps your knee with a little hammer)... it's mental focus that overcomes that, not brute strength

which is why it annoys me that too many people think "the little lady" needs a "little" gun
I do believe in letting them (all newbies) work their way up the caliber food chain, stepwise, but I believe they should do that at their own chosen pace, not my pace or yours

somewhat related to Intro to Shooting 101
make sure they don't do anything stupid or unsafe, but restrain thyself re: expert advice... a minimal tip here or there on root core basics is enough... most newbie shooters don't know that they are expected to miss, if you don't tell them that they should expect to miss (unless they do it "your way"), and most will learn quickly what hits and what doesn't hit with very little "expert" instruction... like above poster said "it's a journey"
They will progress a lot faster, and be more receptive to refined technique tips if you let them shoot, find their comfort zone, find their rhythm... whilst enjoying the trip

PS
#1 most annoying phrase repetitively heard in gun forum threads - "for those who cannot handle"
some really do say it with sincere intentions re: people who have physical handicaps, or are just psychologically averse to extra loud noises... but most who say that are just being snot noses
90% of all shooters I personally know, who routinely shoot some "my dawg is smaller than your dawg" caliber, chose to do so as a matter of personal preferences unrelated to "harsh recoil", and they can "handle" mega-magnum just fine any time they choose to, simply because they know how to shoot well

 

[Oyeboten]

My dad used to let me shoot his S&W Model 1917 Revolver in .45 ACP when I was Eight.

I was very aetherial then, whispy, slender, and so on...and I took to it just fine, loved the old Revolver, and the recoil never made any impression on me at all.

Yet I know now, that it is a pretty decent recoil with those.


We used to shoot WWII surplus Ammunition with it, so, not like any of it was downloaded or anything.

I shot one Handed, too...just barely able to reach the Trigger at that age...supporting my wrist with my other Hand to manage the weight at arm's length like that...and, I had to do patient Single Action with it if memory serve...since my finger was not long or strong enough to manage the Double Action mode.

You'd be fine with a Colt Model 1911, or any other .45 I am sure.


Just have a right grip, and stance, and balance...and the recoil becomes a pleasure or an incidental, instead of a bother or annoyance.


I agree with what oldfool mentions - recoil management in any 'normal' Caliber, is by far, a matter of right grip and stance, and, an open easy attitude.

If worried or tense about it, things will not go well.

If easy and relaxed and accepting about it, or if actually liking it, one has a good basis then to managing it well.

We never started with small Calibers, we just started out cold with the M1917, so I never knew anything else.

I loved it, and same day we began, I was putting them into the Bullseye alright, or hitting the Can or Bottle, or whatever.


'Technique' ( slow even steady pull of the Trigger, with no anticipations as for when the Hammer will fall, a good and correct kind of grip, everything steady...) really matters in so many ways.


I remember I did everything slow...slow and steady.


Being solid and easy with slow and steady and having one's shots find their Mark...

One can always speed up later with practice.


Most people probably are in too much of a hurry, and everything gets muddled as for how they are doing, and what they are doing...where their attention or awareness is, and or they are not at peace with it...they feel conflicted or apprehensive.

 

[Carne Frio]

While some of the effects of recoil are "mental", it is actually elementary physics.

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

That is a link to one of many recoil calculators.

 

[JoeMal]

I was shooting a 12 gauge when I was probably 10. Good form helps I think. Getting over the 'gun going boom, shoulder hurting' idea also helps. Yes, it's a gun. I know when I have shot with new(er) shooters, they anticipate or 'stress' the kickback of the gun and it seems to make it worse.

 

[browningguy]

like .22lr for starting out with pistols

I recommend that for all new shooters, regardless of size or strength. It's a good thing in my mind to start everyone out with something that has essentially no recoil, take time to learn proper grip and trigger control, then start moving up.

Others may disagree.

 

[oldbanjo]

If you get someone interested in shooting with a light recoil gun, even a pellet pistol or rifle, it would be a lot better than scaring them with a 12 ga or a 3006. Starting off with less noise is better. I'm surprised at the people that would only shoot my Mossberg 500 w/PG one time w/low brass shells, I use 3" 00 mags. My 410 Derringer doesn't bother me, others complain about the recoil.

 

[oldfool]

I recommend that for all new shooters, regardless of size or strength. It's a good thing in my mind to start everyone out with something that has essentially no recoil, take time to learn proper grip and trigger control, then start moving up.

Others may disagree.

no disagreement from me
my default is ALWAYS start them with a 22 rimfire.. but I bring others along with, and
let them decide, but "make" them take a step at a time, unless they absolutely insist otherwise

amongst my favorites to bring for Handgun Introduction 101 is a full size 357 revolver
and a box of 38 wadcutters
and a box of 38 sp
and a box of 38+p
and a box of 357 mag

all of which can go into just one cylinder, progressive, for quick feedback

some do it in one trip, others in days or weeks
don't pull 'em, don't push 'em, just allow 'em choice
if they enjoy it, they will be back for more, and some will want more than any above

 

[oldfool]

My 3 oldest grandsons...picked up shooting skills and safety very fast.
he hit it...I would not have traded that moment for an extra year of life.
All the boys got their own single shot rifles
accuracy is a journey of a lifetime, not a sprint today...
I started my wife ...and she is a great shot! Lord, I love that woman...have for 44 yrs.

just have to say I really enjoyed your post !
reminds me of us, our kids, grand-children, and great-grandchildren.. how we do it with our own
(and milady, 37 year anniversary in a few days, workin' on forever, don't get no better than that)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Regardless of real recoil and felt recoil, I have noticed that technique, proper fit, and familiarity with the firearm go a long way. I have seen some little people do very well with full power larger calibers and I have seen big people do very poorly with mid-range stuff.

80 lbs should not mean that you are limited to .22s, .223s, and .410s. They might be a good place to start, but they are a good place to start for many people.

 

[Manco]

The reason i am asking is that I hear a lot of people talk about lightweight shooters and suggesting really low recoil stuff like .22lr for starting out with pistols.

Well, I think that starting out with .22 LR is a good idea for most people, big or small, because it largely removes one element, that being recoil of course, from the whole challenge of shooting, which allows one to more quickly and easily (i.e. less frustration) develop certain skills before having to fight to control the gun. As an added bonus, ammo is dirt cheap, relatively speaking, which both encourages more practice from those who may not yet have been hooked on our sport/hobby, and allows people in general to work out as many of their novice mistakes as possible, making more efficient use of the money they'll spend on larger calibers later.

I understand what you're getting at, though. Some people can handle larger calibers from the beginning, and some even feel compelled to because they just bought a gun for self-defense in response to a new and specific threat (that would be me). I had no trouble basically shooting .40 S&W from the start, although it took a lot of practice (and many round$) to become minimally proficient in accurate rapid fire. Knowing what I know now, I might have started with .22 LR anyway, despite it being less effective per round, because I probably could have learned combat shooting even a bit faster with it.

I weigh a whopping 80 lbs on a good day wearing a hoodie and jeans and am 5'7", I can lift a little over a gallon of milk comfortably.

And for reference I'm even shorter than you but weigh about 215 lbs--some of that is a slightly protruding gut, I have to admit, but it's on a large frame (short legs, large torso) with a heavy bone structure, and I'm pretty strong, too (basically, I'm built like a Neanderthal with a modern human head ).

Now where I am confused is consider that I am a small and pretty weak guy, so why does it seem that shooters seem to think that small people necessarily have to shy away from large calibers and stick to 20 gauge shotguns, .22lr pistols and .22-250 centerfire guns for fear of injury?

I suppose it's because that's how things usually work out, although we should always keep in mind when helping somebody start out in shooting that there are exceptions, and looks can be deceiving.

By the way, I assume that even though you may lack physical strength, in certain ways, by your own admission, you're probably built pretty tough on a cellular level. For example, I know some big, strong people who bruise easily or are sensitive, because of their nerves if not their body structure, to pressure and the pain that results. Similarly, it is possible for small, lightly-built folks to have tough skin and blood vessels, meaning that they rarely bruise, and there's no reason that they couldn't be naturally insensitive to localized pressure.

In general, people are all different, of course. I think I'm actually more sensitive to muzzle blast than recoil--not the noise, which I protect against, but the pressure and vibration and all that. One time I spent hours at the range shooting several boxes each of .40 S&W and .357 Magnum in lightweight handguns, and after a while the blast (especially of the .357) started to bother me noticeably (might have been partly psychological, I don't know), but my hands and arms felt no pain or fatigue. Physically, I could have literally shot those calibers all day long, and I have difficulty imagining how anybody could say that they actually hurt (feels like playing patty-cake to me, but without the painful slaps ). I don't doubt them, though, because in my own family there are large individuals who can't stand shooting more than 50 rounds of .40 S&W before complaining about arm pain, and there are small, frail-looking, physically weak individuals in their 70s who have shot 100 rounds or more in one session, and made absolutely no mention of physical issues.

In general, always let people choose their own guns and calibers, once they've tried them at a range.

 

[dagger dog]

Perceived recoil is relative and directly proportionate to the amount of testosterone in the blood stream at the time the shot has been triggered.

If females are present at the range and the age of the male shooter is 40 yrs or younger the relative perceived recoil of a .50 BMG non-braked bolt action rifle can be as low as a .22 rimfire.

 

[oldfool]

"Neanderthal with a modern human head"
ain't nothing in that head "Neanderthal" !

I think that words are just too limited in definitive meanings, (dictionaries do not count, it's connotations that count), words like "hurt" or "pain" when discussing recoil are far too frequently misinterpreted, by those with selective mindset

a hefty caliber heavy recoil long gun that you shoot only rarely will not "hurt" you, absent inappropriate technique
for most people who shoot centerfire rifles, those won't "hurt" their shoulder until the next day, and will be long gone before sundown, or next morning worst case... absent a "too old" shoulder like mine
(even just 50 rounds of 12 gauge shot shells will do that to me, 'cause it's not something I do enough to acclimate to, whatever.. so I don't do that)

I "don't like" running 50 rounds of of 380acp out of a Ruger LCP derringer, but it never has hurt my hand, never once affected my running a hundred rounds of 357 mag out of a k-frame right after.. but I can enjoy only 20 or so rounds 380acp with a 2 1/2 finger grip at any one time, and then move on to "other/stouter" that don't bite into web of my soft widdle hand

hand me a 44 mag Ruger revolver with a 50 round box of ammo, hand me a 44 mag snap cap with it, please, so I can get my mind right, and 'get over it' (by dropping a snap in the cylinder each set).. but not because the live rounds hurt my hand any more than the snap cap does.. and my wrist looks small compared to your average lady's wrist.. but I just don't shoot a bunch of 44

an unfamiliar gun is a unfamiliar gun, different feel, different fit
big dawgs bark louder than small dawgs, but that don't mean they all bite harder
45 acp in full size pistol is (for me) a big dawg with soft teeth, even though I rarely shoot one, feels a lot like 380 in my Colt to me
slide 'recoil' throws me off more than cartridge recoil, because I mostly shoot wheelies

 

[oldfool]

Perceived recoil is directly proportionate to testosterone,,,If females are present at the range and the age of the male shooter is 40 yrs or younger...

only so long as the ladies ain't looking at the target and making sarcastic jokes about it
girl giggle shrivels macho every time