This recoil stuff is pretty subjective, isn't it?

['Card]

I've been thinking a lot about pistol recoil lately.

I'll freely admit to being a relative novice (relative to most of you guys, anyway) when it comes to pistols. I own a couple, and I enjoy shooting them, but I have always been (and probably always will be) primarily a rifle and shotgun guy. Over the last year or so though, I've kind of gotten into this whole CCW deal, and as a consequence I've been doing a lot of reading and researching different types of pistols, different types of ammo, etc. THR has been a great starting point for most of that.

I've also been spending a lot of time at the range, and I've ended up shooting a lot of other people's guns lately. It's not like I just walk around and bug people, but I've got one of those new SA-XD's in .45ACP, and naturally a lot of people are curious about it and ask me about it, and I always invite them to put a magazine through it if they'd like. They usually return the favor, so in the last month or so I've probably ended up trying a dozen or more pistols.

The thing that mystifies me is that pistol people are always talking about recoil with this gun being less than that gun, etc. I just don't get it. I haven't ever noticed what I'd call 'significant' recoil with any of them. I even ran into a guy last week with one of those new .500 S&W Magnum howitzers (which I'd been kind of itching to try because I've been thinking about deer hunting with a pistol) and it made a lot of noise and flash, but I couldn't see what the big deal was in terms of recoil - I've got an old 16-gauge that knocks you around a lot more than that thing did. It's not as if I'm a mountain of a man or anything, either. I'm about 190lbs., 5'10" tall, closer to 40 than I am to 35 years old, and I'd like to think I'm fit, but I'm certainly not muscular.

So last night I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone, and he asked me if I was still happy with my XD. I told him I was really in love with it, and he said "I used to have a .45 but I sold it and bought a 9mm. Just too much kick from the .45." - this shocked me because this guy is an experienced pistol shooter, and he's at least 4 inches taller than I am and 30 pounds heavier. I told him how much that surprised me, and he said "You've got to realize that recoil is mostly a mental thing. You've spent your whole life shooting 12-gauge's and .30-06's and that .300WinMag monster, so your perception of 'significant' recoil is going to be a lot different than it would be for someone who exclusively shoots pistols."

I thought that was a pretty interesting perspective, so I figured I'd toss it out here and see what you guys thought about it. Is recoil mostly just a matter of perception, and is perception influenced by your shooting background that much?

 

[Indy7373]

I agree. I grew up mostly shooting rifles and shotguns as well, and pistols just don't seem to affect me. I have a friend who, after three shots from my mosin nagant, refused to shoot it again, saying it kicked to hard. And he is bigger and (he says) stronger than I am.

I guess alot of it has to do with conditioning (he did not grow up firing guns) and expectation. I expect there to be some kick when I fire my rifles; I think he was expecting it to be like in the movies, where the hero fires off 200 rounds full auto from the hip and still kills 400 attacking enemies .

That being said, I like your signature line.

 

[pax]

Yeah, it's subjective in a lot of ways. People are different and what bothers one person won't even faze another.

On the other hand, there's nothing subjective about joint damage from firing high round counts of heavy calibers. That's an objective phenomena, fairly well documented.

And on yet another hand, some people enjoy shooting heavy calibers but can't hit jack with them. Even someone who likes a hard-hitting round can develop a flinch.

pax

 

[Biker]

Yup, I used to semi-enjoy shooting full power slugs out of my 870, but since I tore a rotate cuff, I no longer enjoy shooting them.
Biker

 

[Double Maduro]

Pax,

I agree with what you said.

Maybe you can answer a question, or 4, for me.

Why is it that most people think that women can't fire a .45? Why do people think it is "too much gun for a woman"?

A friend of mine, rather petite maybe 5'2", wanted to learn about handguns. So my wife and I took her shooting. I started her off on my Ruger 22/45, moved her up to a Makarov, then a 2" .38 special and on to my Ruger P90 .45.

We finished up the day with a few .357 rounds from the 2". (After every shot she took a step backward.)

The gun she shot the best that day was my Ruger P90 .45. She decided to take some classes, got her Oregon CHL, even though she doesn't think she will carry, and started going to the range and renting handguns. (When she asked me what gun I thought she should buy, I told her to rent a bunch and buy the one she shot best.)

Every trip to the range she would rent a 9mm and at least 1 .45. When she would show me the targets I would tell her which ones were fired from the 9mm and which from the .45. She always shot the .45's better.

After a while, when she would ask what kind of gun she should get, I would answer with a couple of questions.

q What caliber do you consistantly shoot the best?
a .45.

q What platform do you shoot it best from?
a 1911.

q What gun do you think you should get?
a A 1911 .45.

q Why are you still renting 9mm's?
a People say I am too small to handle a .45.

I asked her several times after she had been to the range, which caliber she thought had the worse recoil and her answer was almost always the 9mms. (There were some compact .45s and some .40s and 10s that she didn't like.)

Is it pre-programmed that women can't shoot the .45?

Any insight would be appreciated.

DM

PS. Did you ever get an elk rifle for your son?

 

[Thylacine]

Yes, I concur that allot of the recoil stuff is subjective. I think that felt kick of recoil is only partially responsible for the "stuff". Adding in just the different factors involved, Sound, Flash,Kick and maybe even the heft of the weapon, all of which are perceived differently by individuals, might be where the differences add up. ??? Then there are the psychological/physiological aspects of the shooter (bad experiences in the past, getting kicked on your butt when you were 8 by a double barreled 12. -don't ask-. ) ....

Anyway, yes I agree.

 

[MD_Willington]

The first real rifles I shot were Enfield in .303 and a Springfield in 30-06... to me everything after that was "Is that it?", though I've shot 30-378 once and that was only fun for 3 rounds... We did use the 870 a lot too..

I have yet to fire a MN, considered getting one a while back..

The only thing that happened to me with a DB 12 Guage was the tang (not sure if that is the correct term) to open the chambers up for loading bit me...

 

[bubbygator]

My regular shooting started with .45 on a ship's pistol team 49 years ago. Many years later when I first shot a 9mm, I thought it's recoil was quick/hard/pushing straight-back whereas the .45's was slow/gentle/pushing-up. It took me quite awhile to become accustomed to 9mm's. The 9mm can be brought back on-target quicker even though it's recoil still seems "snappier" to me.

 

[rms/pa]

just today i got to shoot a glock in 357sig , side by side with a .45 govt model colt.
to me the glock seemed quite snappy and less pleasent to shoot. if i had to use one on a regular basis i would add thin gloves.

the colt being heavier and more familiar did not seem difficult or painful.

felt recoil seems to be a wildly subjective experience. predictions should be modified for a YMMV statement.

rms/pa

 

[Monkeyleg]

I shot competitively in the 1980's using a S&W 586 with fairly hot .357 loads. No flinch or anything, but I did notice my wrist got pretty sore after a long event.

After that, I got into shooting rifles, and was away from pistols for some time.

I'd heard about how much a .45 kicked, but was surprised at how mild the recoil was when I started shooting a 1911 regularly.

OTOH, rifle shooters would always laugh at me when I complained about my shoulder after an afternoon of shooting .270 or .308.

As far as wrist pain goes, I get more from working on this keyboard all day than I do from a couple hours at the range.

If it's all in my head, at least I should be thankful that something is there.

 

[atomchaser]

I think it has alot to do with ergonomics. I shoot large caliber pistols (mostly 10mm, 41mag, 460 mag) with no problem, but I use a fairly relaxed grip and don't fight the recoil. When I shoot my 270 lightweight hunter rifle or 20 ga o/u I get a sore shoulder.

 

[ARperson]

I know I'm not Pax, but I am a woman so I'll give your .45/female questions a shot. Most women I know shoot better with the 1911 platform. I think that the full size frame helps absorb a lot of the recoil and the thinner grip fits female hands (shorter fingers) a lot better than many of the other pistols. I think a lot of women find 9mm to be less desirable because the snappiness of the reaction, so while the actual recoil may not be any more than the .45, it feels more uncomfortable to them because the gun seems to be going crazy.

As for the recoil subjective thing. My personal opinion is that many people use the word recoil when they really mean muzzle flip. For discussions on this topic, I usually define recoil as the perceived feeling of having the pistol slammed backwards into the palm/web of your hand. And I define muzzle flip as the upward motion of the front end of the gun, usually measured by how far from point of aim it moves after the shot. The .45 may be a large caliber, but it's not necessarily all that powerful in the recoil department. However, my 9mm Glock 26 seems to have more oomph with each shot because the muzzle flip is decidely more noticable.

I also think that felt recoil is something that accumulates over time. Sure, the few shots from the .500 S&W didn't seem so bad at the time (I didn't think so either), but I'll bet that after 50 or so rounds, you're hand would be smarting.

Just my opinion on the subject.

 

[Black Majik]

Absolutely subjective!

I have a friend that goes with me regularly to the trap range. She's about 5'2", most likely under 100 lbs.

She'll argue with me to shoot the 12 ga.

Once we brought her cousin, who is the same age as us. He's probably twice her weight, 5'10... and since it was his first time at the trap range, we let him use the 20 ga.

The huge ol' bruise he received was astonishing. He was getting brutally punished by the 20 ga. that we advised him to either take a break or stop shooting all together.

5'2 girl that LOVES the 12 ga. vs. 5'10 guy, twice her weight that got royally owned (unfortunately) by a 20 ga.

So yeah... i'd say its subjective

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

My wife and I shot handgun silhouette (IHMSA) in the early 80's. Sandy once fired 140 rounds of .44 Magnum out of a SBH in one morning qualifying for the state tournament, and she isn't a big girl. Her hands were numb, but she didn't break any bones.

I think that men think they have to 'conquer' the gun, get a death grip on it and fight the recoil. If you roll with the recoil, it isn't painful at all. Tiring, but not painful.

I have no problem with .45 recoil. Muzzle flip is the only thing I have to work on, and I'm 5'7" and 140 lbs.

 

[pax]

DM ~

Truth is, I just don't know. Every time I think I've got something like a handle on that kind of thing, something someone else says just throws me for a loop.

Female range buddy of mine loves her .45's. I've never known her to shoot anything smaller than a .40. Her husband tells me how much it amuses him to visit gun shows and shops with her, and watch the clerks utterly refuse to show her anything except 9mms and .38s unless or until she gets ugly with them. The way he tells the tale, being treated like that is the rule rather than the exception.

Why do they do it? Maybe because most assume the equation female = new shooter, and new shooters really should use lighter calibers. Maybe.

Or maybe it's just that their daddies said women like smaller calibers and it suits their male egos to think dad was right. I don't believe that, really, but I guess it's a possibility.

Or maybe it's just a cultural hangover. I often see women really struggling to shoot guns that are physically too large for their hands, a bad and scary thing. Years ago, big caliber = physically big gun and small caliber = physically small gun. That's not the case anymore, but it could be that the basic idea of steering a woman toward a physically smaller gun by telling her she should get a smaller caliber has stuck around even though there's no longer any real reason for it.

On the other hand, I had opportunity last week to visit with a lady who is very accomplished in shooting IPSC. She's quite small (several inches shorter than my 5'4") and, well, scrawny. She shoots a .45, and points out that it's always been difficult for her because she doesn't have the mass to do the work of snapping the muzzle back in place after each shot -- she has to do all the work herself. She certainly believes that shooting heavier calibers is more difficult for smaller people, and yet her accomplishments make it very, very plain that even for the smallest woman, it is not a matter of can't.

So I dunno. What I do know is that I certainly wouldn't want to be the clerk who told a national title holder that she's too small to shoot a .45.

(Oh, re the elk rifle, no. Finances got in the way.)

pax

 

[ctdonath]

Recoil has a lot to do with
- expecting the gun to jump
- holding it where that jump is not painful.

Early in my shooting days, recoil was such a surprise. Sitting there so quietly, then suddenly this thing JUMPS around, slamming into my shoulder or hand. Eventually I just got used to it, controlled it better, and ignored it.

More significantly was outright pain. Launching strings of full-power 12ga slugs downrange at LFI-I was downright PAINFUL. Having that thing smack into my collarbone, with a thin layer of skin getting squashed between stock & bone, HURT. Eventually I learned proper body mechanics, and positioned the stock onto a muscle that could absorb that impact far better. Now I don't think I could improperly position it even if I wanted to - subconcius KNOWS where that stock goes, and why.

Firing slugs out of a 12ga pistol, well, NO. That just plain hurts at a mechanical level and not much can be done about it besides "don't".

Firing Jeff Cooper's "Baby" (an "elephant gun") was interesting: not so much a kick as a hefty shove. The recoil impulse was very long, as if someone put a hand on your shoulder and then pushed hard.

Yes, recoil exists. Yes, it's magnified & controlled by psychology. Accept it, and position the gun properly, and most of the recoil seems to vanish. ...but not all, as there is a purely mechanical component at the core, which can cause harm.

 

[akodo]

q Why are you still renting 9mm's?
a People say I am too small to handle a .45.

I asked her several times after she had been to the range, which caliber she thought had the worse recoil and her answer was almost always the 9mms. (There were some compact .45s and some .40s and 10s that she didn't like.)

Is it pre-programmed that women can't shoot the .45?

Any insight would be appreciated.

My insight is that fit matters much more for performance and felt recoil than caliber does. I bet most of the 9mms are double wide. Hence the single stack 1911 45 shoots best. I concur though, if a 1911 45 shoots good, buy it.

 

[Azrael256]

I had a lesson in recoil with a little Seecamp .32. We all know that .32 is a wussy round that no Real Man(tm) would carry, right? Well, after a day of shooting .40 and .380 from a friend's pistols, I tried a few rounds of .32 from that little pocket gun... Whooo was that a wakeup. You guys remember that scene from Casino where they catch the guy cheating at cards and smash his hand with a ball-peen? That's about what it felt like. And I couldn't hit the target at 9' to save my life.

With a small enough gun, any caliber is going to be painful. I'd take a .50 Desert Eagle any day over a teensy .32.

 

[Foxtrot427]

I wonder what the recoil is like on that new kel-tec .223 pistol. Or some AR pistol.

 

[ArmedBear]

Recoil comes in different forms.

I can most certainly handle the recoil from .357 rounds in an Airweight snubbie. It's not about to fly out of my hand, and I can empty the cylinder in a little group. The first cylinder. But then the web of my hand starts to swell up after a few more rounds, and by the end of a box, my groups start to string really badly due to cumulative pain.

It would not be my choice for target shooting.

A 1911 doesn't hurt, but if you've ever shot a 9mm gun built on a full-size 1911 frame, you know how much easier it is to shoot a series of rapid shots into a tiny group than with .45ACP.

 

[TallPine]

90 percent of recoil is half mental


Seriously, I can't figure out what the big deal is with recoil, at least regarding handguns. The only one that I have found painful was a friend's Bisley Vaquero with some of his insane (1500++ fps ?) handloads. And then it was only the trigger guard slamming back into the knuckle of my middle finger. One cylinder full of those was enough for me.

Rifles/shotguns are different ... some of those can hurt. I think the difference is that you can absorb the recoil of a handgun with your arms but a rifle just butts into you.

 

[birddog]

Excellent thread. I just don't see all the fuss about standard handgun recoil either. I shoot .44 magnum rounds and -- while not as easy on the palms as a box of .22's -- thoroughly enjoy it. I just love shooting .44's and 357's out of decent sized handguns.

When I first was looking at .45's (I have a Ruger KP 345 and a SA 1911) I was amazed to see the comments here at THR about .45 recoil. To me, the .45 is one of the MOST pleasant rounds to shoot, even out of the plastic gun. I always run out of ammo before I run out of tolerance for the "recoil".

That said, full-power, hot loads of .357 in my Taurus snubby are not pleasant to shoot and after 3 or 4 cylinders I am ready to call it a day and switch to another gun. But that gun is ideal for carry, not for target shooting. That's why I bought it -- to carry.

Also, my short-lived ownership of an Encore pistol in 30-06 was a disappointment. It wasn't the recoil or flinch that got to me. It was the continual slamming of the trigger guard on my fingers as a *result* of the recoil. I could handle the gun, but not the abuse! If it came with a soft rubber trigger guard, I'd probably still have it. It was an impressive handgun, but I simply could not perfect a comfortable shooting grip. Shame, but I let it go on a trade not too long ago.

Recoil is definitely subjective.

 

[Gunpacker]

Back in the 80s when silhouette first got started in our area, we had some matches that were attended by a small young girl about 13 yrs old, along with her father. She would sit and calmly shoot the .44 magnum without blinking an eye. She shot it very well too. Always amazed me.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I do think AR has hit it right on the head. It's the flip not the recoil.
My daughter uses a 1911 for CCW.
She's shot it since she's 12 years old.
I lost count of the number of times some idiot would look at her with it and come up with "a little girl like you can't handle that." She's 5'0" and slim. The comments stop after she empties a magazine.
Oh, she won't touch a 9MM.

AFS

 

[Cosmoline]

Up to a point, it's subjective. But when it's actually impacting bone and joint tissue it's pretty objective. A .454 Casull SRH is going to rock and roll anybody's world with powerhouse loads. So will a .500 S&W. An 1895G with .45-70 magnums is going to wake you up, and the same loads out a Ruger No.1 will make you wonder if you've torn your rotator cuff.