Not devolving. The entire premise of the question of "resurgence" is based on popularity. And if you want to shoot a 10mm in volume (as I do), it be hooves you to either 1) Have a lot of money. Or 2) Be a hand loader. Because ammo for the 10 isn't cheap.
Is the 10mm making a resurgence
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Agreed about shooting in volume requiring handloading. True for about everything but .22, 9mm, .223 and maybe 40 and 45.
If you can save your brass, shooting 10mm isn't particularly expensive. New brass is available at reasonable prices from Starline and others. The same bullets that work in 40 work in 10mm, so there's a huge selection and lots of low-cost options. Primers are just regular LPP's. Powder - well, you can get just about any pistol powder to work in it short of the H110 line. Never seen anyone try a Trail Boss 10mm load, either, but that's not really a cost-effective powder!
And the "devolve" comment was about several recent threads - including one thread I started to get the semantic disagreements sorted out - that involved disagreement over what constituted a "common" or "rare" cartridge (e.g., "available at my Wal-Mart" test versus "available online today" test).
If you can save your brass, shooting 10mm isn't particularly expensive. New brass is available at reasonable prices from Starline and others. The same bullets that work in 40 work in 10mm, so there's a huge selection and lots of low-cost options. Primers are just regular LPP's. Powder - well, you can get just about any pistol powder to work in it short of the H110 line. Never seen anyone try a Trail Boss 10mm load, either, but that's not really a cost-effective powder!
And the "devolve" comment was about several recent threads - including one thread I started to get the semantic disagreements sorted out - that involved disagreement over what constituted a "common" or "rare" cartridge (e.g., "available at my Wal-Mart" test versus "available online today" test).
ny32182
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I've owned 10mms for years. I don't know. At least 10 years, probably longer.
In all that time, everyone has been convinced that 10mm is "on the edge of experiencing a resurgence".
It was developed before my time, but my impression is that it was never really "surged" in the first place, and without a major military or LE following, it will never be a mainstream cartridge; simple as that. I think it will always have a strong niche following due to its unique performance capabilities and commonly shared components with many other cartridges, but it will always be for either very low volume shooting, or handloading. Now and forever.
I used to have several, but I guess I'm down to one now. It hasn't been fired in years. That said I have no plans to ever get rid of it.
In all that time, everyone has been convinced that 10mm is "on the edge of experiencing a resurgence".
It was developed before my time, but my impression is that it was never really "surged" in the first place, and without a major military or LE following, it will never be a mainstream cartridge; simple as that. I think it will always have a strong niche following due to its unique performance capabilities and commonly shared components with many other cartridges, but it will always be for either very low volume shooting, or handloading. Now and forever.
I used to have several, but I guess I'm down to one now. It hasn't been fired in years. That said I have no plans to ever get rid of it.
Well, I think there was an initial surge when the FBI (and several other LE agencies/departments) adopted it. Then a big de-surge when they dropped it. For a while, it was questionable whether any firearms manufacturer would keep 10mm guns as a catalog item, especially when S&W dropped theirs. Relative to that period of time, sure, there's been a resurgence.
But it's a resurgence into a niche where it will likely stay... maybe slowly growing or slowly contracting. It is a common commercial cartridge, but it's far from ubiquitous and cannot touch (nor is it likely to touch) the government-subsidized calibers of 9/40/45 in terms of popularity.
As for its future as a service cartridge, I think that four factors work against that being likely: 1) current 9mm and 40 ammo is perceived to be as reasonably effective as a duty handgun cartridge can be; 2) the Fackler model of terminal ballistics is now CW among LE and DoD crowds, and putting an extra 150-200 fps on a projectile that already has adequate penetration is seen (perceived/believed) to have no benefit whatsoever; 3) the rise of the plastic-framed duty gun (which is surely nicer to carry on the hip for 8-10 hours straight, 4-6 days a week) means that even the 40 is perceived by many to be a high-recoil round, and throwing an extra 150-200 fps worth of recoil on top for no perceived benefit (see #2) isn't seen as attractive; and 4) larger number of officers with smaller hands (mainly women) mean that both the 10mm and 45ACP (and any other round requiring a longer action and grip length) is perceived as problematic.
Whether those are all good reasons is open to debate, but they're pretty powerful forces working against widespread agency re-adoption.
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Sam1911
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I'd agree with ATLDave's assessments. When the crux of succeeding in using a defensive sidearm is well understood to be making fast decently accurate hits, repeatedly, when it is understood that once you've managed to drive that bullet through the bad guy there's no benefit to a lot of excess energy, and when it is demonstrable to anyone with a timer that more recoil slows down everybody, no matter how good a shooter you are, it doesn't make much sense to push 10mm, .41 Mag, or the various other high energy handgun rounds as combat or police (or self-defense) cartridges.
Add in the fact that the need, or ability, or effectiveness of shooting through heavy steel automobile parts or other barriers has been largely set aside as a crucial factor.
Call it behavioral economics, or just "too much of a good thing." 9mm is fine, .45ACP is fine, .40 S&W is fine. Lamenting that the FBI didn't really put in the effort to train officers to be good with that heavy load is probably wrong. It seems like that was one thing they got right.
Add in the fact that the need, or ability, or effectiveness of shooting through heavy steel automobile parts or other barriers has been largely set aside as a crucial factor.
Call it behavioral economics, or just "too much of a good thing." 9mm is fine, .45ACP is fine, .40 S&W is fine. Lamenting that the FBI didn't really put in the effort to train officers to be good with that heavy load is probably wrong. It seems like that was one thing they got right.
Cyclical. The 10mm has been "dead" many times. As more people buy them and discover they don't like the recoil, they will decline in popularity to previous levels. I have seen this happen several times over the last 30 years. It is a nice cartridge and great for certain things, but does have some drawbacks that prevent it from becoming consistently popular.
I'm not personally convinced this is as open-and-shut as many people now think. But, as I said, that view is currently dominant among the "officials" and there's little sign of it being revised anytime soon.
I live near "back country"...my back yard in fact. Do I need one? Well, I feel more comfortable out in the bush with it. The G20 was the second Glock I ever owned, bought 18 or more years ago. Now I carry the G29 because it's more compact. Resurgence? Maybe just new shooters are discovering it. Dunno. I handload exclusively for it.
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stchman
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I've heard that Ruger's new SR1911 in 10mm is a great gun. The Tanfoglio Witness in 10mm is supposed to be a really good gun too.
JONWILL
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This is true. I have a Colt Delta I got online. they are around $950 or so delivered. Ammo, most factory ammo is basically 40 S&W power. Maybe slightly more but not much.
You need to either buy near custom ammo like "Buffalo Bore" and have deep pockets. I reload with Blue Dot. It gets me around 1200- 1250 fps. Be aware the Colt does not have a fully supported chamber.
There are loads for Blue Dot that are hotter. I tried a couple and found there was a slight bulge at the bottom of the case. I backed off an never had a problem since.
Varminterror
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Yup. 10mm ebbs and flows...
I agree - a guy can say energy left on the bullet after it exits is wasted, but it's REALLY simple to understand that's an absurd over simplification when you consider what a .30-06 does vs. a .243win. Both kill deer - which one puts them down faster? Which one dumps more energy in the body? Which one has more energy when they exit? When they enter?
I want my bullets to have enough momentum to exit, but I REALLY want them to dump a lot of energy along the way. Have to start with a lot of energy if you want to dump a lot. Does a guy gain anything using a 458win mag on a bunny? eh, not really, but that extreme case doesn't really represent the 9 vs. 40 vs. 45 vs. 10mm use on human assailants...
Mauser lover
Member
Making a comeback? I don't know. I want one though!
FL-NC
Member
I understand, but I just don't think its necessary or that I would benefit. Maybe if I was in grizzly country it may make more sense. There's an outfit in Scandinavia that carries G20's for polar bear defense, so I guess it works. Since I live in the Fl panhandle, I really don't have any polar bear or grizzly threat.
FL-NC
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barnbwt
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They're tooling up to make 10mm USP barrels over on HKPro...
I certainly hope the popularity rises; my USP conversion is extremely fun to shoot, and I suspect the SW10 I'm building will be as well. There need to be more locked breech carbine options in this chambering, since it's basically a more compact 300 BO at that point.
TCB
I certainly hope the popularity rises; my USP conversion is extremely fun to shoot, and I suspect the SW10 I'm building will be as well. There need to be more locked breech carbine options in this chambering, since it's basically a more compact 300 BO at that point.
TCB
Zaydok Allen
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FL-NC
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Maybe, but I think it would be cost prohibitive compared to carbines in 9mm, 45, and even 40 due to a lack of "bargain" ammo and the appetite of guns of that type.
MachIVshooter
Member
Yes, though there needs to be heavyweight bullet options. 10mm 200 gr. has to be downloaded to be subsonic in handguns, let alone carbines. Full power loads bark pretty good out of my G20 with the SiCo Hybrid & Osprey, unpleasant for naked ears.
I built a 10mm magnum AR upper, and plan to swage 300 gr. JHPs for suppressed use if I can sort out my magazine issues. Right now, I'm running modified 30 rounders, but they will not accept more than 14, and it doesn't feed reliably with more than 9-10 loaded.
harrygunner
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A 10mm handgun is essentially a higher round count .357 Mag. Few people have issues with .357 Mag ammo for self defense. But, for some reason, 10mm is good for bears, but overly powerful for people. I don't get that.
Dr. Gary Roberts wrote, referring to 200gr 10mm ammo: "... the 10mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ..."
I get that.
Went to an outdoor range today and shot three of my 10mm handguns. It occurred to me as I considered this post, that I didn't notice recoil at all.
Resurging or not, I carry a Commander length 1911 in 10mm daily. The Underwood 200gr XTP ammo I carry averages a little over 1180 ft/s from that gun.
I've stockpiled enough Underwood 10mm ammo to keep me going even if everyone else stopped using it.
Dr. Gary Roberts wrote, referring to 200gr 10mm ammo: "... the 10mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ..."
I get that.
Went to an outdoor range today and shot three of my 10mm handguns. It occurred to me as I considered this post, that I didn't notice recoil at all.
Resurging or not, I carry a Commander length 1911 in 10mm daily. The Underwood 200gr XTP ammo I carry averages a little over 1180 ft/s from that gun.
I've stockpiled enough Underwood 10mm ammo to keep me going even if everyone else stopped using it.
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.455_Hunter
Member
When I was on active duty, a full power 10mm carbine seemed like it would be the perfect 0 - 200 yard weapon compared to the platform challenged 5.56mm.
Most are not aware that DoubleTap Ammo was founded on providing full-house ammo for the 10mm. Their success with the 10mm has been tremendous; take a look at the EXTENSIVE line of calibers they now load for, all started by the 10mm.
And...there are, by far, more manufacturers chambering for 10mm today than ever before.
Sam
And...there are, by far, more manufacturers chambering for 10mm today than ever before.
Sam
I've been using Xtreme 220 RNFP's. Ever played with those?
MachIVshooter
Member
I haven't, will check them out. Still nowhere near heavy enough for what I'm trying to achieve with the 10 mag in a suppressed SBR, though. A 300 gr. pill at a subsonic 1,100 to 1,150 FPS would be a heck of a nice, quiet thumper that affords more rounds in the mag than stepping up to .45 or .50 cal, and would also have excellent sectional density. Hog killer
I had actually originally built that upper for 10mm auto, but the problems were two fold. One, the round is too short for regular AR mags and 2, I used pistol length gas, and there just isn't enough gas volume with 10mm auto for that to function. So I reamed it to 10mm mag and ordered 1,000 pieces of brass from Starline. It's an impressive round, pushing 180 gr. bullets at 1,800 FPS, and cycles the action properly. But despite being long enough to feed from the standard AR mags (the bullet nose lines up perfectly with the indentations inside that guide the shoulders of 5.56mm rounds) with the little polymer insert I made and a shortened follower, the straight profile and wider case causes things to bind up with more than 9-10 rounds loaded. So I'm still gonna have to make custom magazines, which I'll get to at some point.
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