Is the 1894css a 50 yd or 100 yd gun?

[Shrinkmd]

I have been very frustrated with my Marlin 1894css. I recently tried out some new loads in it, after not shooting it for some time. I tightened the peep sight (screws were loose) and was finally able to get a nice target at 50 yards with a 3-4 inch group. I was shooting off a rest, my accurate pistol load of 158gr Dardascast lswc (bevel base), 0.358", CCI SP, 14.5gr of 2400, in Starline cases.

So, I move it out to 100 yds, and discover that my group went from a couple of inches to a few feet! I didn't have any 357 jacketed with me, and I haven't had a chance to check the bore for excess leading. The good target at 50 yards was after about 40 or 50 rounds, so it seems unlikely it suddenly leaded up after those few rounds.

I am almost fed up. I enjoy working the lever, and I like the idea of a lever action rifle, but I enjoy shooting at 100 yds. I was hoping for a fun rifle to use while my Mosin or Mauser cools down.

What would be a logical order of new things to try? I guess I could make up some 125gr jacketed 357 and try to eliminate the problems with lead bullets. I was really hoping to shoot lead though, since it is so much cheaper. I was also curious to try my standard 38 special load (same 158 gr bullet over 3.5gr of Bullseye) but those didn't group nearly as well at 50 as the 357 14.5 gr 2400 load.

Are most people content with a 357 lever action carbine out to 50 yards? Like a big, overgrown 22? Except my crummiest 22 shoots rings around this gun so far.

 

[Old Fuff]

Marlin's shallow "MicroGroove" rifling sometimes doesn't like lead bullets. I suggest that you try some jacketed bullets to see if it makes any difference. Also try some hard-cast lead ones. The only other solution I know is expensive - have the barrel replaced with one that has conventional rifling.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I don't know what this is worth to you but I have a Marlin .357 1894c microgroove carbine. I don't hand load but have pretty fair accuracy (at least better than what your are describing) using 158 gr off the shelf semi jacketed round nose cartridges. I have not tried a full lead cartridge like a wadcutter. I was afraid they would have feeding issues.

 

[rule303]

I have had very good results from several pistol caliber carbines using heavy for caliber jacketed bullets, and slow pistol powders like H110, and Lil'Gun. My .357 shoots best with 180gr XTP's and Lil'Gun.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

I got past 100 yards with mine using factory loads. 150 is not out of the question, though a good bit of speed and energy is lost at that point, really pushing it for deer. If you zero the rifle inside 25 yards, you achieve zero also around just past 100 yards w/ about 6" drop @ 150. Anyways, while past 100 might not be highly recommended for hunting, it's certainly more than a 50-yard carbine. Mine groups 2" @ 50 yards and 4-5 @ 100.

 

[SHR970]

Old Fuff said: Marlin's shallow "MicroGroove" rifling sometimes doesn't like lead bullets. I suggest that you try some jacketed bullets to see if it makes any difference.

The 1894css is supposed to be a Ballard Rifling barrel not a Micro Groove.

That said, something else is amiss. My Microgroove barrel does better than that with mid velocity hard cast. It does much better with jacketed.

 

[cfullgraf]

My 1894C with Microgroove rifling prefers jacketed bullets at longer ranges. I do not remember the last time I shot it at 100 yards, but do not remember any issues with it.

 

[bikerdoc]

After mounting an inexpensive optic, I am getting 3 to 4 inch group at 100 yds with aguila 158 gr jacketed ammo.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Sounds like I should work up some 158 gr jhp rounds for 100 yd shooting. I have other scoped rifles, so I was hoping to shoot the Williams peep sight to keep up my skills with irons.

I think I have a box of 158 FTX somewhere so I'll make up some 2400 and 300mp loads and see how they do.

 

[shiftyer1]

I have the 1894c, what your describing aint normal from my experienance.

I've been tryin to talk myself into peep sights for mine. I do try to keep my shots under 75 yards, but I have rolled a few coyotes around 115 yards.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

The couple 94s in 357 ive owned were very accurate out to a 100 yards but they were microgroved. Ive got a 44p with ballard rifling and its not good much past 50 yards. slick little rifle but the least accurate marlin ive ever owned. Thing is i guess for me anyway is when im using one hunting its in an area where a 50 yard shot would be a farily long one anyway.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Ballard vs microgroove?

I see that all the new Remlin 1894's come with the Ballard rifling. Does this effect the performance of jacketed bullets? I've read different posts about this, and there seems to be some controversy over if it really matters.

I do need to get my hands on some plain base lead bullets, in addition to trying out more 125 and 158 jhp loads. It looks like these are finicky rifles. I guess shooting pistol bullets further and faster than they were designed for is more challenging than I originally counted on.

 

[mavracer]

I'd guess your close to 1500fps with that load out of a rifle barrel. I'd bet it's leading up. 3-4" at 50 off a bench isn't even close to the gun's capabilities. mine will do that at 100 all day. you'll either need to use Jacketed bullets or work on the cast load some more.

 

[waterhouse]

Mine shot 3-4" at 100 using jacketed ammo, don't recall the recipe. Sold the rifle a few years ago when I switched all of my .357s to 10mm, but it certainly shot decently at 100.

 

[artee]

My Marlin/Cast experience comes from an early ~1973 .45-70 1895. It is microgroove.
1. Look down the bore and count the grooves. If it has 8 or 12, no matter what the model is SUPPOSE to have, your's is microgroove.
2. Shoot a bullet and dig it out of the bank/sand. Again, count the grooves. Verify 1.

3. Loading Cast for rifle is a new ball game from loading for a revolver. More often then not, a revolver/rifle combo using the same cast loads will be a compromise--one gun will not like the other's prefered load.

4. A rifle bullet needs more lube than a revolver bullet. You're going through 18+ inches of tube, not 7. Look for more grooves, wider grooves and/or deeper grease grooves in your rifle bullet. Also on lube, a great lube for pistol might not work in a rifle. Another area to experiment in.
5. Bevel Base bullets are for LOADING convenience. You don't scrape lead trying to seat them. That is the convenience and the only accuracy enhancement they offer, as shaved lead means bullets that are now undersize and gas cut. Learn to bell your cases more or use a Lyman M die. Try flat bases. You'll just have to except that the extra belling and straightening will cause neck cracks sooner and the cases won't last as long in this area. Flat bases usually don't gas cut as easily. They usally seal the bore better. A load with a bevel that works in 7 inches might not make it through the next 12+ for a rifle.
6. START (after determining your rifling type) by slugging your bore. Standard 3, 4, 5 or 6 grove rifling seems to like .001 or .002 inch larger sized bullets than the bore diameter.
Marlin's Microgroove barrels might need a lot more. In .45-70, most guys are successful with the older microgroove .45-70's (.457 bore) with .460 and .461 bullets. The .458s lead like crazy, although common wisdom says this is the correct size. Achieving this is a real problem, as most moulds are made to be .002 or so over the bore. The diameter WILL vary with alloy. Harder alloys frequently come from the mould smaller.
6. A "Quick Boot" might help a bullet with a "less than good" fit. A faster powder, and a heavier charge can help here. It promotes obturation, or bullet expansion to seal the bore and can result in less gas cutting and subsequent leading than a light (low pressure) load.

I've looked here:
http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=dardas&Category_Code=38SWC

as well as all around this guys sight. His sight looks good and he writes well. Then, I saw his shooting accomplishments, and realized I've shot against him. Good man. Haven't used his bullets though.

You have to expect, that he has optimized his design and lube for what works best in a given size, and factored in customer requests. (Hence, the bevel base). In your .357, I would expect that to be revolvers, and not rifles. The single grease groove design looks wide. If it's deep also, it should carry the lube to the muzzle. You'd like to see a "star" of grrease on your crown after firing several. This is lube being thrown off as the bullet emerges from the rifling. Call and find out if he recommends his lube for rifle length barrels. A "no" is pretty definate, a "yes", OK for rifles is a "remains to be seen..." Some people will melt off or use solvents to remove unsatisfactory lube so they can save the bullet and apply a different lube better for their use. Your 14.5 gn Aliant 2400 load is kinda light for a cast bullet. It will have low pressure and won't "Kick in the butt" that bullet up to size. You are on the tight-wire between pressure to obturate your bullet and yet velocity that doesn't exceed your alloy and lube. You might pick a bullet the CAS folks are using, but remember they believe if the bullet doesn't skip bounce twice on the way to the 15 yard target, they used too much powder. I'm not real sure some aren't just depending on the primer alone! Seriously, what I am saying is that the bullet they recommend is likely one that is working at a pretty low velocity (like 800-1000fps). You likely want more.

Good Luck

 

[greyling22]

are your 100yd bullets hitting square? I had an 1894 in 44mag that shot fine at 15yds, opened up to 4" at 25 and missed poster board at 40. I was stripping out the bullet in the rifling and the bullet was tumbling. I went with a harder bullet, slower powder and lower velocity and the problems went away.

my 1894c with microgroove shoots about 3" at 50. I"m happy with that. I don't know if it's me or the gun, but I tend to shoot 3" with any open sights at 50 so it's probably me.

 

[foghornl]

Don't have it anymore, but my Micro-Groove .357 Marlin worked best with Rem 158-Gr Semi-jacketed HP.

That ammo may be a lot different now; that was in the late 70's

 

[CraigC]

It would be a 125-150yd gun if it was shooting right.

 

[BCRider]

That's at or darn close to a full power magnum loading. As such I'd be surprised if you're not at or over the 1500 fps as mentioned. At that point you could easily be leading up. If for some reason you don't want to run jacketed bullets you may want to look at gas check options.

In the meantime maybe jag and patch the bore and look for flecks of lead on the patches.

As for reaching out to an honest 100? YOU BETCHA! ! ! ! Even with my sights set for around 30 yards for my cowboy shooting with hot .357Mag rounds I was able to hit the 200 yard gong at my range about 2 out of 3 times using nothing more than about an 8 inch hold over.

So turning your rifle into a 100 yard tack driver should be as simple as finding a load recipe it likes for bullet and speed.

 

[TwoEyedJack]

I have an 1894FG in .41 mag (microgroove barrel). It is a Jekyl and Hyde gun. It loves expensive loads and hates cheap ones. Using expensive Nosler JHPs and max loads of H110, it prints beautiful round 2" groups at 100 yards using a crappy little 4X scope meant for an SKS. Using my cast bullets (which my Blackhawk shoots well) and AA#5 it shoots 8" groups.

I have heard of people getting decent accuracy out of microgroove barrels with cast bullets, but none of the loads I have tried could be called accurate.

 

[dardascastbullets]

I need to say that you are over the maximum charge (assuming that you indeed have a .357 Mag chamber) listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and that is not good! They list the maximum charge at 13.5 grains of 2400. I would highly suggest that you purchase a copy and adhere to the data within their handbook. You will never go wrong!

Secondly, you did not state what the groove diameter is. This is crucial to know especially in a rifle! I would highly recommend that you size your bullets to at least 0.002" over the groove diameter for this particular rifle. I always sized to 0.002" over the groove diameter for all of my rifles and realized excellent accuracy.

Satisfy these two items and you will then be a very happy shooter with your Marlin.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Hi Matt, thanks for the advice on sizing. Next time I order I will get some sized to 0.359 and see how I do with them. Is that what you usually use? And would that size still be ok for shooting in a revolver?

As far as the load of 2400 with the 158 gr lswc bullet, according to my Lyman 49th (page 359) they show bullet # 358311, a 160 gr standard looking lead round nose bullet, and they give a starting of 11.4 and a max of 15.5.

Were you looking at the 170 gr bullet? That one has a max of 13.5 gr.

 

[harvester]

Put a gas check on your lead bullet and size .002 over. You could also use jacketed bullets. My Marlin 44 magnum is deadly on whitetail deer out to 125 yards and it is microgroove from the late 1980's. A 357 should be equally accurate with just less punch.

 

[bushmaster1313]

My revolver shoots better than that

 

[RalphS]

I'm going through the same process you are. I have an 1894c with Ballard rifling. I'm testing mainly with LRNFP cast bullets from Friendswood Bullets and Penn Bullets. LSWC don't feed well in my Marlin although I do like to shoot them in my GP100. The RNFP bullets were designed for lever action rifles so that's what I use in the Marlin.

I've tried various loads of Universal, H110 and AA9. I haven't gotten around to testing with 2400 but will eventually. Every single load has been awful except for one -

11.0 gr AA9, Federal Small Pistol Primer, Friendswoood Bullet 158 gr. RNFP sized to .358 (standard sizing). With this load I get 10 shots into a 1 inch group at 50 yards. To be exact - 8 shots into a hole less than 1 inch and 2 shots that were about 1/2 inch high.

The same load with a 158 gr. XTP does about 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards for 10 shots. That's not bad either and leads me to believe that it's the load and not the bullet.

Everything else is a 3-4 inch group at 50 yards.

My bore slugs at .356-.357. I've tried both .358 (Friendswood) and .359 (Penn) sized RNFP bullets and the results have been the same, which means that the problem isn't with the bullet size but with the powder and charge.

I haven't chrono'd this load yet but I will soon. I usually load 13.5 grains of AA9 with 158 gr bullets in my 4 inch GP100 for 1251 fps but that load gives me a 4 inch group at 50 yards with the Marlin.

The Friendswood bullets are cheap - $31.50/500 plus shipping. I also like Missouri Bullets and Penn Bullets and think that they would group just as well.

I plan to test some more loads with the 158 grain bullets later on but I also want to find a good load with a 180-185 grain hardcast. I really like the Beartooth Bullet 185 grain WFN and, for plinking, the Missouri Bullet 180 gr. Strikers and would like to find an accurate load for those.