Is the .220 Swift a useful round?

Status
Not open for further replies.
When we were young and stupid a buddy and I hunted sage rats at 200 to 500 yards with a .220, a .243, a .270, and a .25-06. We loaded our own rounds and had some outstanding loads worked out for all of these cartridges. I had to back off on the .243 loads when the primers started blowing by. My buddy swore his hottest load for the .220 left a trail of blue lead smoke for a ways. I never could actually see it. My favorite was my .270 with the smallest bullets we could find (110 gr. I think) and a whole bunch of 4895. Ah, those were the days. It's a wonder we survived.:evil:
 
I saw the same booth at the gun show and I was very surprised to see the hole the .220 swift made in the plate. I am in the steel industry so I asked a few questions, the guy at the both claims that the plate was 3/8" AR500 which is 500 brinell hardness. He said that he did not personally have a .220 swift, but another guy with a booth at the show shot it for him (I don't know what round was fired). Basically AR500 is a step below armor plating. Its heat treated a little bit differently and doesn't produce quite the ballistic results of say a Mil-A-46100, which is currently being used in armored vehicles for the military.
 
He then punched a few holes thru a piece of 3/8 steel plate. Mentioned it was friction (heat and melting and pushing the material through) doing that trick. Velocity is the answer for sure. Many of the faster bullets can do that today.
**********************
66stang, Above is something I posted earlier. Steel plate is how hard do you figure? It weighs about 16 lbs a sq ft. I know the 220 can go through that pretty slick, as I mentioned.
 
Why have a 220 Swift, well for starters I can shoot it while the barrel is cooling on the 22-250 and I don't want to use the .243 yet.

So, it is very usefull to me, it keeps me shooting whan I would otherwise be sitting there watching others.

bob
 
What use for a small caliber, high speed projectile? You gotta be kidding me!

Varmints, small or thin skinned medium sized game, target punching at just about any range, teaching a new shooter with a low recoil round that is going to hit what they put the crosshairs on at 100 without question, plinking at tin cans out to 300 yards :) Quite simply, these calibers are FUN!

.220 swift is the speed champ among the .22's, but there's others in the same ballpark (.22-250 and .222mag come to mind), I shoot a .204, the latest of the barn-burner .20's, but not the first! There are tons of small caliber, high speed offerings. From tiny little 17's like the .17Mach4, to mid sized 25's like the .250-3000 savage, all designed to do one thing... put a small bit of lead downrange _FAST_.
 
Well, I guess I'm a dinasaur too, cause after owning and shooting a wide range of calibres from .375 down to.222, I now rely solely on a Springfield 03 in 30-06 for all hunting chores. It always shoots the same, puts meat on the table if I do my part, doesn't unduly punish on the backside, and with the right bullet selection, will take everything from squirrels to (I'm sure) Bear. I even load gas-checked, hardcast down to 1200 fps for plinking.

As for the .220, I've seen them do funny things out of an old friends Mod. 70, including dropping a fair sized feral hog like a sledge hammer with a rear quartering head shot.

None other than P.O. Ackley had this to say:

"Ackley backed up his claim with actual tests on armor plating and live animals complete with pictures. He fired at a U.S. half-track that had 1/2 inch thick armor plating with three calibers, A military round of 30-06 Armor piercing that penetrated only .07 of an inch, a .270 Winchester with high velocity 100 grain bullets that flatened out and a .220 swift factory load with 48 grain bullet at 4,100 fps. The Swift puched right through the 1/2 inch thick armor plate. This astounded even Ackley who therorized that the bullets high rotational spin had a lot to do with penetration. The rotational spin was a fantastic 212,916 revolutions per minute. Sound familier? Fast forward to the U.S. military that went to the 62 grain .223 bullet out of a fast 1 in 7 twist for more drill like penetration of helmets many years later."
 
I seriously doubt rotational speed has anything at all to do with steel plate penetration.

The only factor involved is speed.

A Swift bullet would be going close to 1,000 FPS faster then a 100 grain .270, and 1,500+ FPS faster then a 30-06 AP.

At the moment of impact, the bullet is vaporized against the steel plate and the resulting impact energy is turned into heat and plasma gas. The Swift bullet actually melts & burns through the steel, not "penetrate" it like a tunston steel AP core.

Any rotation would be meaningless at the instant the bullet was turned from a solid mass to a super-heated gaseous mass.

It's the same effect that makes the shaped charge copper disk IED's so deadly against our armor in Iraq.

Put quite simply, the little .220 Swift bullet will shoot through more steel then an 06 or .270, is because it is going at least 25% or more faster.

1224.jpg
rcmodel
 
I had a Ruger 77 bull barrel in .220 Swift back in the early '70s and I loved it. I was shooting and handloading a lot at the time and loaded my ammo at about 3800fps, which didn't substantially affect terminal ballistics/performance (at least that I could tell) and presumably reduced barrel wear compared to the 4000+fps velocities of factory loads and hot-rod handloaders (no disrespect intended, I just didn't do it).

I shot hundreds of ground squirrels, rabbits, birds etc. - and one mule deer buck at about 150 yds that dropped literally in its tracks, due more I suspect to bullet placement rather than speed/energy. Unfortunately, I sold it after 10 years or so to buy something else, which -1) I don't remember; and -2) obviously didn't impress me as much as the Swift, which remains today as one of my most memorable calibers/rifles.

People buy guns for myriad reasons - for hunting, self-defense, plinking, competition, etc. - and sometimes just to be unique, or what they personally perceive to be unique. Dang near everybody's owned at least one Model 70, or a 700, or a 336, an 870, 1911 or any of the "mainstream" firearms at one time or another (I know I have, anyway) - but most of us have also at one time or another bought guns and/or calibers we thought - for reasons entirely our own - were unique, and served to set us apart (however momentarily) from the "masses". There's nothing harmful about having a little fun with individuality.

My point is (finally) - that I've been lurking around this site for awhile and have found 99% of the topics and discussion remarkably good-natured, thoughtful and informative - compared to other forums I've been around.

That said - and I know this is my first post so I don't want to seem presumptuous - to say that the 30-06 is a "dinosaur" is by definition incorrect, because the dinosaurs are long gone and the 30-06 is not only still here; but remains one of the most popular - and provably versatile - calibers ever produced - which should be instructive in regard to whether or not it's still a viable round.

Also, nobody "needs" a .220 Swift - any more than we "need" a $40,000 pickup - but if you want one, and can afford it, then why not? And, who's to say we shouldn't have it or are somehow at fault for having it or wanting to have it? Honestly, Shawnee, I mean no offense but that's the part I don't get - unless you're just overplaying the contrarian :neener: for fun, which is certainly possible.

I'll probably never own another .220 Swift because it just doesn't fit with what I'm doing now and I have other places I choose to spend the money - but that rifle and the times I had with it remain among my fondest shooting memories.
 
Hi Elgin...

No offense taken, Elgin.

Would like to point out that what I've said is that neither the 220 Swift nor the 30-06 is needed. And in fact, I said at least once that they can be used.

If I am "contrarian", it is against the people who feed new shooters the apple sauce about they need a 30/06 (or 300 Win Mag. or 458 Win Mag) for deer, or elk, or moose, or bears when, in fact, that simply isn't true.
Nor is it true the 30/06 (or 220 Swift) is going to do anything significantly "more" or "better" than other calibers for the typical hunter.

I agree with you - if someone likes the Swift or the '06 - great, I hope they have a blast with it. But all these fruitcake claims about how they are needed or offer tremendous significant advantage is plain old dishonesty and even worse, it fosters the really bad mentality that one can "buy capability" by just buying some fast, big caliber.

I've watched literally hundreds of everyday people shoot, partly because I taught Hunter Safety Education in three states for 30 years. One of the most common and important things needed to get across to people is that game-shooting skill and clean kills come from hunter ability, not gadget-ability. So, for my money, those who claim the Swift or '06 is needed are the contrarians - contrarians to Fact.

As always, local opinion may vary. :cool:
 
They may start to open up after 1000 rounds or so.Most people will never approach that number of rounds fired through a hunting rifle.But,it's something to consider if you plan to.

Or if you view firearms as heirlooms. I'm sure my deer rifle (.270 WIN Remington mod 721) has seen more than several thousand rounds. My Grandpa used it for 40 years for deer in season and coyotes year round. I have put more than 1,000 rounds through at prairie dogs alone....... It still gives 1.25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards.......
 
On an odd tangent, I have a copy of the 1969 Gun Digest handy with an article from an old timer hunting Caribou with the then new .220! I can scan it if anyone is interested.
 
Thanks Shawnee, appreciate it - I don't want to get into a never-ending semantics loop here, or parse words just for the sake of debate. However, I think it's very difficult - as in darn near impossible - to decide what firearms and/or calibers are really necessary. And, because I can' resist doing so, would suggest that among the comparatively few long gun calibers that could reasonably be considered necessary from an all-around/hunting/SHTF perspective (including ammo availability. etc.) would be the 30-06 - but enough of that.

I couldn't agree with you more that marketing plays a big - arguably too big - role with regard to what we buy for what reasons - but that's human nature, and unfortunately (unless you're in marketing) none of us is completely immune to the those influences, whether passive or dynamic. Also agree that being able to shoot a pumpkin at 5000fps is not an adequate substitute for either hunting skill or bullet placement.

So, I think we agree on the substantive, objective issues - it's the subjective stuff that gets us sideways. Like, for instance, I agree that folks who claim the .220 Swift is an absolute necessity are contrarians in both fact and practice given the relatively small representation of that caliber in the larger scheme of hunting/shooting. However, that isn't true when applied to the 30-06 - it might be old, ordinary and not as sexy or fast as a Lazzeroni 7.82 Warbird or .30-.378 Weatherby (two pretty good examples of your position, BTW) - but yet it remains a ballistic standard by which many calibers are still measured, which would suggest that if any caliber is "needed", the 30-06 might fit that description.

Also, I think it's important to note that while a .300 Winchester might be considered overkill (no pun intended) and therefore not needed for deer, IMHO it's a more appropriate caliber to use in that application that a .220 Swift - so, then, a significant element of hunting skill is proper, application-specific caliber selection. Again with the caveat that bore size is no substitute for establishing skill-relative target distance and bullet placement.

I suspect people are tired of reading this, so I'll close for the moment by asking you what I think is an honest question, and given your obvious experience I'll be honestly interested in your answer. I'll allow also as to the fact that I may have missed this somewhere along this line, but - given a literal (maybe too literal) interpretation of your position, you don't seem to think ANY caliber is "needed", which of course by extension means no guns are needed. Obviously, given your presence and participation on this forum and your knowledge and experience with firearms you're likely not on the Brady Bunch board of directors - so - and I ask this sincerely - in your opinion what firearms and calibers ARE needed?

Or, after all my lofty and erudite observations, are you simply stating that many of us buy guns for objectively unjustifiable reasons because of some marketing guise - or maybe just that we've convinced ourselves - absent any marketing influence - that we "need" them - a delusion under which I've bought a few myself. If that's the case I agree with you.

And, if so, as Emily Latella would say - "never mind". :D

Now I'll shut up.
 
Hi Elgin...

LOLOLOL ! :D No problem, Elgin.

As a shooter and lifelong triggerjerk who has owned and used upwards of a hundred assorted guns I've enjoyed the plethora of calibers to talk about, reload for, shoot, swap and agonize over in general.
But as hunter and observer of many, many shooters/hunters I've become convinced that the "best" or, perhaps "most useful" calibers are those that help the shooter shoot well, and that is by default an advocacy for calibers with good trajectories and good terminal ballistics combined with the least-necessary recoil and blast.
Thus my personal position is that the (mythical) average hunter here is served to complete satisfaction with a .243 Winchester. Partly that's because for every hunter who gets to go after anything larger than deer there are probably 1000 who never send a slug after anything larger than deer.
Because of my involvement with Hunter Safety Ed. I have had contact with Fish & Game folks, guides and hunters from many places and those from the antelope states have always assured me that even with antelope the vast majority of those killed/recovered are shot at 300 yds. or less and a high % of those shot at beyond the 300-yd. bouy end up as "unrecovered".
Yes, longer range shooting is possible but, truthfully, a cross-section of those haunting forums like this would not be representitive at all of the hunting population in general. The somewhat scary eye-opener is to visit a large public range in the weeks ahead of deer season. The number of people with rifles that show up for their once-a-year "practice" and their general lack of knowledge and ability is astounding. And that is fact, not snobbery. Hordes of people go hunting who don't put 1/100th of the effort into learning to handle their weapons that the many of the folks on these forums do.
But back to calibers - my personal opinion is that a reasonably good hunter/shooter after anything on this continent would be in the absolute Lap of Luxury if they had a .22/250, a .243, and a 7mm/08 - and would never really need anything else. They wouldn't need the 7mm/08 until they went for something larger than deer. That's to say most hunters here would be just fine with only the .22/250 and the .243, and, truth is, whatever they could do with the .22/250 they could do with the .243 and worry a tad less about the breeze.
All that said - I really like the Swift, the 25/06, the .270 and even the 7 Mag. but I know they won't do anything in most hands that can't be done with the .243 and 7mm/08, and neither will any of the .30 calibers.
I also like the .44 Mag. and the 30/30 - not because they are more useful but because they come in rifle packages that are simply a lot of fun to play with and they can do a very commendable job on deer (and black bear) at the ranges where many, many deer are successfully harvested.
So all of the above leads to my habit of recommending calibers that the "average" shooter/hunter will be willing to shoot enough to develop some real skill with and recommending against calibers that I know will discourage a lot of the "once-a-year" types.
And from a political standpoint - we all need those "casual" hunters/shooters because if the shooting sport(s) depended on the patronage of just the really accomplished riflemen - both the shooting and hunting scenes, and the entire civilian firearms industry would have disappeared decades ago. Best case civilians would never have access to anything but whatever the military had. That is, in fact, how the hunting fraternity got saddled with the obvious overkill of the '06.

As always, local opinion may vary. :cool:
 
Wow. A great thread with some well thought out responses. I think the smaller cartridges are excellent in the hands of a marksman. But,no matter how much you wish it, there will be a substantial number of hunters that are never a very good shot from lack of talent or lack of practice. Some may benefit from less recoil, but many will not shoot them well either. There is no way to quantify the percentage, but some more game will be harvested with an off shot from a larger high velocity bullet.

If you give half the deer hunters a 22/250 or 243 and half the deer hunters a 30/06, the 30/06 will win.
 
Hi Zero...

"some more game will be harvested with an off shot from a larger high velocity bullet."

Actually, the more lightly constructed bullet of the .243 is more likely to shed all its' energy in the body of a deer - thus doing maximum damage - while the heavier/tougher bullet of the '06 is more likely to pass through expending much of it's energy on the landscape beyond the deer - thus doing less damage.
But that still doesn't change the fact that a bad hit is a bad hit no matter the caliber and using a bullet that is just 0.065 inch larger in diameter is not going to bring any more deer to bag with "off hits".

;)
 
I have shot more deer than I can remember with a 30/06, usually with Sierra 165 grain specifically because they are soft. They usually will not go through a large buck, but are caught in the hide on the opposite side. Nosler Partitions or Barnes X will usually keep on trucking, probably a better elk bullet. I agree that the difference will not be huge. But, after tracking, skinning and gutting a few hundred deer shot by a lot of different people with a lot of different calibers and cartridges, I'll still give the edge to the fatter bullets.
 
Actually, the more lightly constructed bullet of the .243 is more likely to shed all its' energy in the body of a deer - thus doing maximum damage - while the heavier/tougher bullet of the '06 is more likely to pass through expending much of it's energy on the landscape beyond the deer - thus doing less damage.

So a .243 that expends all it's 1600 ft/lbs and stops in the deer is better than a 30-06 that expends 1800 of it's 2400 ft/lbs and punches a hole all the way through the deer?

:scrutiny:
 
I love the .220 swift. I have a 50 grain Vmax load that is near 4,000 fps. My prairie dog buddy used to accuse me of shooting the little rodents over the horizon, it is deadly accurate with a custom Hart barrel. A nice side benefit is that the 50 grain Vmax bullets leave the dogs in little bitty pieces much to the delight of the eagles and other birds of prey that stop by to fill up while I am still shooting. And, if I come back a few hours later there is often a coyote or two to bag.
 
While I've never tested my swift on steel plates, I can tell you that it will turn praire dogs inside-out at 600 yards and beyond.

As a handloader, I see no reason to use any other varmint round. The .220 can be loaded up or down from equal with .223 rem. to being the fastest, period. I typically run loads that sit at the furthest reach of a .22-250's potential, which is still pretty gentle on .220 brass and barrels. And the difference in efficiency is quite negligeable if one is considering the cost. New brass is similar as well.

I really can't understand why the .220 is so overshadowed by the .22-250, except perhaps the old wisdom of it's being a barrel killer. But modern metallurgy has made that a much smaller issue. And again, if you load it to .22-250 velocities, the .220 will give you greater cartridge case and barrel life than the .22-250.
 
Hi Jesse...

LOLOLOL ! :D

You decided to quit readiing (or quoting) a little too quickly, Jesse... the point I made is... "But that still doesn't change the fact that a bad hit is a bad hit no matter the caliber and using a bullet that is just 0.065 inch larger in diameter is not going to bring any more deer to bag with "off hits".

Nice try though! LOLOLOL ! :D
 
Actually, the more lightly constructed bullet of the .243 is more likely to shed all its' energy in the body of a deer - thus doing maximum damage - while the heavier/tougher bullet of the '06 is more likely to pass through expending much of it's energy on the landscape beyond the deer - thus doing less damage.

No, I'm just taking issue with the statement that the 30-06 will do less damage than a 243, due to expending less of it's total energy within the deer.

I agree that shot placement is the most critical thing, though a "Texas heart shot" from an '06 will probably have better results than the 243.
 
Well I should have read this thread a long time ago! I never knew someone online could tell me which calibers I needed. What about pistol calibers??:neener: j/k
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top