MachIVshooter
Member
That's why I use a .375 Ultra, just in case there's a tree between me and his corn hole.
Is the .220 Swift a useful round?
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That's why I use a .375 Ultra, just in case there's a tree between me and his corn hole.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Back in the days of single-base powders like Hercules HiVel, the Swift did burn the throat more quickly than most other cartridges of the era. The problem eased a good bit with the increased use of double-base IMR powders.
If there is a drawback to the Swift, it is that the case is more subject to elongation than such as the .22-250, and must be checked more often for trim-to-length and for any possibility of case-head separation. It's no really big deal, though, in my experience.
I found that Mr. Sierra's 52-grain HPBT and a reasonable amount of 4064 was ruinacious on feral cats out around 300 yards. And prairie dogs at around 400, but the range limit was mostly me.
As to the '06 and dinosaurs, I've been shooting the darned things since 1950. As far as I'm concerned, the marketing hype of all these new cartridges hasn't persuaded me that I need to "improve" my killability. Dead's dead, any way you look at a deer on the ground. I never have fingered out what all the fuss is about. Puzzling.
Art
If there is a drawback to the Swift, it is that the case is more subject to elongation than such as the .22-250, and must be checked more often for trim-to-length and for any possibility of case-head separation. It's no really big deal, though, in my experience.
I found that Mr. Sierra's 52-grain HPBT and a reasonable amount of 4064 was ruinacious on feral cats out around 300 yards. And prairie dogs at around 400, but the range limit was mostly me.
As to the '06 and dinosaurs, I've been shooting the darned things since 1950. As far as I'm concerned, the marketing hype of all these new cartridges hasn't persuaded me that I need to "improve" my killability. Dead's dead, any way you look at a deer on the ground. I never have fingered out what all the fuss is about. Puzzling.
Art
qajaq59
Member
I get a good laugh every time I see this 30-06 is a dinosaur jazz. I'd bet if we still had any dinosaurs around, there'd be a bunch of us dropping them with 30-06s.
Shawnee
member
LOLOLOLOL !!
And a lot of people get a good laugh whenever they hear some geezer crowing about how he continues to pound himself with his old '06 blunderbuss.
And a lot of people get a good laugh whenever they hear some geezer crowing about how he continues to pound himself with his old '06 blunderbuss.
Elgin47
Member
Interesting that this thread has morphed into a referendum on the 30-06 as well as the .220 Swift, but it's making for some spirited discussion, anyway.
I'm going to hijack the thread momentarily and then we can get back to the .220 Swift discourse which (before somebody else says it) I know is a lot more interesting than reading my ramblings.
Not picking on you Shawnee (OK, maybe a little), but I'm going to get application-specific again RE: your .243/7mm-08 and 1/1000 comments - with the understanding that you're talking about "there" and I'm talking about "here". I'm fortunate enough to live within 15 min. of game from sage rats to Mule deer to Rocky Mountain elk, coyotes everywhere, more than a few cougars and even the occasional black bear. Obviously, if I enjoy such proximity to a variety of game so do all the other hunters who live here, which skews the heck out of your 1:1000 ratio, at least locally. That said, population density in the 5000 square miles surrounding me is < 1/sq mi (interesting factoid - population density of Eastern Oregon is roughly the same as Alaska) - so, statistical proportionality aside, your ratio probably becomes more valid as the base sample increases. Also (got off track there) this is windy, wide-open country where distance and long-range shooting ability are the limiting factors rather than visibility.
So, while I agree that a .243 is a very good deer caliber (though bullet placement can get pretty iffy in the wind at the outer limits of its effective range) - I would suggest that here - in this particular application - the 25-06 or .257 Weatherby (me and Roy's favorite) is legitimately and objectively a better and more responsible choice for deer.
Similarly, because elk are a much tougher - skin and everything else - animal than deer; and again because in this country a 300+ yd. shot is the rule rather than the exception (insert long-range shooting ability disclaimer here) -- IMHO a .270 is about the lightest caliber that's responsibly adequate for elk. Now, I know guys who hunt (and have killed) elk with everything from a 25-06 to 30-30, to .300 Savage to .300 Win Mag to .375H&H and everything in between - my point is that a .243 is a good deer rifle around here if used with proper judgment, and for sure it can be used to pop coyotes, etc. - but it is absolutely not enough gun for elk in this country. I know you weren't suggesting that it was, my point is that hunters here legitimately "need" something bigger than the .243. Personally, I firmly believe that .30 caliber is the minimum that should be used on elk (the 30-06, for instance, is very popular with the local geezers), but that opinion is worth exactly what it cost you.
In the main I agree with most of what you're saying; but as my high school English teacher told me - "generalizations are dangerous" - and that's my point - your "mythical/average hunter" does not represent 90% the real average hunters around here; nor, I suspect, does that same mythical/average represent hunters generally between the Rockies and the west coast - maybe even the Mississippi and the west coast. Nationally, your ratio might(?) hold true - but I'd be willing to bet it's way off when applied regionally. And, neither does the .243 premise hold true where I - and a whole bunch of other western elk hunters - live.
And now back to our regular programming....
I'm going to hijack the thread momentarily and then we can get back to the .220 Swift discourse which (before somebody else says it) I know is a lot more interesting than reading my ramblings.
Not picking on you Shawnee (OK, maybe a little), but I'm going to get application-specific again RE: your .243/7mm-08 and 1/1000 comments - with the understanding that you're talking about "there" and I'm talking about "here". I'm fortunate enough to live within 15 min. of game from sage rats to Mule deer to Rocky Mountain elk, coyotes everywhere, more than a few cougars and even the occasional black bear. Obviously, if I enjoy such proximity to a variety of game so do all the other hunters who live here, which skews the heck out of your 1:1000 ratio, at least locally. That said, population density in the 5000 square miles surrounding me is < 1/sq mi (interesting factoid - population density of Eastern Oregon is roughly the same as Alaska) - so, statistical proportionality aside, your ratio probably becomes more valid as the base sample increases. Also (got off track there) this is windy, wide-open country where distance and long-range shooting ability are the limiting factors rather than visibility.
So, while I agree that a .243 is a very good deer caliber (though bullet placement can get pretty iffy in the wind at the outer limits of its effective range) - I would suggest that here - in this particular application - the 25-06 or .257 Weatherby (me and Roy's favorite) is legitimately and objectively a better and more responsible choice for deer.
Similarly, because elk are a much tougher - skin and everything else - animal than deer; and again because in this country a 300+ yd. shot is the rule rather than the exception (insert long-range shooting ability disclaimer here) -- IMHO a .270 is about the lightest caliber that's responsibly adequate for elk. Now, I know guys who hunt (and have killed) elk with everything from a 25-06 to 30-30, to .300 Savage to .300 Win Mag to .375H&H and everything in between - my point is that a .243 is a good deer rifle around here if used with proper judgment, and for sure it can be used to pop coyotes, etc. - but it is absolutely not enough gun for elk in this country. I know you weren't suggesting that it was, my point is that hunters here legitimately "need" something bigger than the .243. Personally, I firmly believe that .30 caliber is the minimum that should be used on elk (the 30-06, for instance, is very popular with the local geezers
), but that opinion is worth exactly what it cost you.In the main I agree with most of what you're saying; but as my high school English teacher told me - "generalizations are dangerous" - and that's my point - your "mythical/average hunter" does not represent 90% the real average hunters around here; nor, I suspect, does that same mythical/average represent hunters generally between the Rockies and the west coast - maybe even the Mississippi and the west coast. Nationally, your ratio might(?) hold true - but I'd be willing to bet it's way off when applied regionally. And, neither does the .243 premise hold true where I - and a whole bunch of other western elk hunters - live.
And now back to our regular programming....
Shawnee
member
Hi Elgin...
LOLOLOL ! Not a bit worried about being "picked on", Elgin. Everyone has an opinion.
Much of my experience with HSE and public shooting ranges took place in So. Texas (not Ohio) and I shot/witnessed quite a bit of local sillouette competition. Have seen plenty of those western long-distance shooters and they are factored into my opinion. Ditto for the "long-range" woodchuck snipers in the Midwest (of which I was one for 20 years). That's just an FYI though.
Am in agreement with your assertions about the .243 and its' susceptibility to wind beyond 300 yds., and that's one of the reasons I like the 25/06. But I simply cannot recommend 300yd. shots to most people... which means the .243 will do fine.
Another reason to like the 25/06, though, is that it shares something with the .220 Swift - that being it can be sighted in for a "zero" at 275 yds. and it will be +/- about 3.25" out to about 330 yds. - which is to say a "point-blank" hold to nearly 350 yds, and that is S.W.E.E.T. ! But were I to go after Elk I would still opt for the 7mm/08.
The Swift is even better. Even with the 60gr. spire points it can be sighted at a 275 yd. zero and never be more than +/- 2.5" out to about 330. yds. How do Ya beat that for "flat" ?? But the .22/250 can zap pasture poodles at 350 yds too (and beyond) - just a different hold. Gotta admit though - the Swift is FUN !!
LOLOLOL !
Not a bit worried about being "picked on", Elgin. Everyone has an opinion.Much of my experience with HSE and public shooting ranges took place in So. Texas (not Ohio) and I shot/witnessed quite a bit of local sillouette competition. Have seen plenty of those western long-distance shooters and they are factored into my opinion. Ditto for the "long-range" woodchuck snipers in the Midwest (of which I was one for 20 years). That's just an FYI though.
Am in agreement with your assertions about the .243 and its' susceptibility to wind beyond 300 yds., and that's one of the reasons I like the 25/06. But I simply cannot recommend 300yd. shots to most people... which means the .243 will do fine.
Another reason to like the 25/06, though, is that it shares something with the .220 Swift - that being it can be sighted in for a "zero" at 275 yds. and it will be +/- about 3.25" out to about 330 yds. - which is to say a "point-blank" hold to nearly 350 yds, and that is S.W.E.E.T. ! But were I to go after Elk I would still opt for the 7mm/08.
The Swift is even better. Even with the 60gr. spire points it can be sighted at a 275 yd. zero and never be more than +/- 2.5" out to about 330. yds. How do Ya beat that for "flat" ??
But the .22/250 can zap pasture poodles at 350 yds too (and beyond) - just a different hold. Gotta admit though - the Swift is FUN !! 
ZeroJunk
Member
As in somebody with decades of field experience versus what?
BTW, none of these cartridges are new.They were all wildcats decades ago. Just because a commercial entity decides to start marketing them does not mean they weren't judged on their merits by men long ago dead.
Shawnee
member
Hi Zero...
LOLOL !
LOTS of people have "decades of field experience" and they don't all use, or even like, the 30/06 - not by a long shot.
If you personally and all your friends and neighbors love the 30/06 - GREAT - ENJOY! It can get the job done.
But there are other calibers that many, many people will do better with and enjoy using more, and thus the old 30/06 is by no means Sacred - not by any stretch of the imagination at all.
LOLOL !
LOTS of people have "decades of field experience" and they don't all use, or even like, the 30/06 - not by a long shot.
If you personally and all your friends and neighbors love the 30/06 - GREAT - ENJOY! It can get the job done.
But there are other calibers that many, many people will do better with and enjoy using more, and thus the old 30/06 is by no means Sacred - not by any stretch of the imagination at all.
ZeroJunk
Member
Shawnee, I'm not using one myself. Messing with a 280 AI at the moment. Matter of fact, I'm going to take a Benelli SBE in a few minutes, not expecting over a 30 yard shot.
But, the laws of equal and opposite force have not changed regardless of the people you see flying in the movies after being shot while the shooter remains still.
Back to the OP, a Swift can certainly kill deer as I witnessed in my first post. But, believing that the smaller bullets are as effective as larger bullets on poor shot placements defies physics and logic IMO.
But, the laws of equal and opposite force have not changed regardless of the people you see flying in the movies after being shot while the shooter remains still.
Back to the OP, a Swift can certainly kill deer as I witnessed in my first post. But, believing that the smaller bullets are as effective as larger bullets on poor shot placements defies physics and logic IMO.
Shawnee
member
Hi Zero...
Where did you find dies for the .280 AI ???????????
Where did you find dies for the .280 AI ???????????
JesseL
Member
ZeroJunk
Member
I think I got them from Huntington, but it's been a while. Anyhow, Huntington has all that stuff. Hundreds and hundreds of wildcat dies.I have about 30 sets of this and that. I can load your 243, 22-250, 7MM-08, 25/06 and 270 off the shelf. I don't have anything for 220 Swift.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
RCBS sez that if you give them the dimensions of your pet whizboomer, they'll make a set of dies for you.
In the FWIW antique cartridge thing, Phil Sharpe shows a load of 2400 and a 40- or 45-grain bullet at 3,900: For the .22 Savage HiPower.
I guess my gripe is the idea that there's such a thing as "obsolete" for cartridges which perform way above "barely adequate". Sure, there are newer cartridges which have advantages over some of the dinosaurs. Even there, however, the amount of advantage is strictly in the eye of the beholder.
E.g., my 700 Ti in 7mm08 will pretty much equal my '06 for the whitetail or mule deer I've killed with the '06. Advantage? Three pounds lighter rifle. And the only real difference between the whitetail kills with my '06 vs. my .243 has generally been the distance I was willing to take a shot. Big deal--not.
I've been acquainted with the Varminter cartridge for some sixty years. It's equal to the Swift, for all practical purposes. Remington thought it was so good they made trivial modifications and brought it out as the .22-250. And now we have the .204 thingy.
Hey, they all work. Me, I'm just an old hot-rodder: If it works, it's good. If it doesn't work, chrome it.
, Art
In the FWIW antique cartridge thing, Phil Sharpe shows a load of 2400 and a 40- or 45-grain bullet at 3,900: For the .22 Savage HiPower.
I guess my gripe is the idea that there's such a thing as "obsolete" for cartridges which perform way above "barely adequate". Sure, there are newer cartridges which have advantages over some of the dinosaurs. Even there, however, the amount of advantage is strictly in the eye of the beholder.
E.g., my 700 Ti in 7mm08 will pretty much equal my '06 for the whitetail or mule deer I've killed with the '06. Advantage? Three pounds lighter rifle. And the only real difference between the whitetail kills with my '06 vs. my .243 has generally been the distance I was willing to take a shot. Big deal--not.
I've been acquainted with the Varminter cartridge for some sixty years. It's equal to the Swift, for all practical purposes. Remington thought it was so good they made trivial modifications and brought it out as the .22-250. And now we have the .204 thingy.
Hey, they all work. Me, I'm just an old hot-rodder: If it works, it's good. If it doesn't work, chrome it.
, ArtShawnee
member
Hi Art...
The 7x61 Sharpe wasn't too dusty either !
The 7x61 Sharpe wasn't too dusty either !
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