Is the 870 a good value anymore?

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earlthegoat2

earlthegoat2

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That is the question. A check through the MSRP page on the Remington website got me thinking on whether the 870 is really the go to pump gun these days. My primary focus is on the Wingmaster. Obviously this isnt Remington's top selling 870. It is the best looking and best feeling of all the 870s though (opinion). It is there only option where you can get nice walnut and bluing. All for the MSRP price of $773 for the basic 12 gauge.

Then I got to thinking. I went over to the Browning site where I looked at the BPSs. Since I currently own both a BPS Hunter and an 870 Wingmaster I can take them both in my hands and compare them. The BPS has infinitely better bluing than the Wingmaster but my particular Wingmaster has better walnut. The Browning MSRP is $569. That is over $200. Both of these guns have identical looks and feel as it pertains to their overall finish.

Obviously the Browning and the Remington are different guns mechanically but does that really matter or account for the difference in MSRP? Is the 870 Wingmaster still worth it? Granted I do see more BPS Hunters than Wingmasters around so maybe this question is already answered. You can say that since the Browning is made in Japan then of course it is cheaper but that is not the truth.

This is only a microcosm in the huge scope of firearms but Im open to some opinions on this.
 
At the prices you have listed I would pick a Browning. Not worth the extra $200 to me for a 870 Remmington
I have not looked but I thought they stopped making the Wingmaster.
 
When comparing brands, be sure to weigh in parts/accessory availability. I made this mistake when buying my Benelli SuperNova. Initial quality/price is one thing. Taking care of things down the road, both easily and in a cost-effective manner, is something else. Dont get me wrong. I love my Benelli shotgun. But, I will have to admit that the 870 is practically tops (along with Mossberg) when it comes to availability/cost of factory and/or aftermarket parts. You just might run into the same scenario with a Browning. Something to keep in mind.....
 
The Browning, unfortunately, is too heavy to be a legitimate replacement for a Wingmaster LC 12 in the field. And the 20 is too heavy to compare with the Wingmaster in 20, also. Yeah, I know how Remingtons are made, and I balk at the prices because of it. Piano wire and stampings may make great guns, but they ought to make great guns for less than 700 bucks!

If I were going to spring for a polished pump, I think I'd get an Ithaca. IMO it really is the pinnacle of upland pump guns.

However, I generally see pumps as occupying a whole different niche, at least for me. If I have to baby it in the field, I can get something else. Still, I may end up with an Ithaca.:)

...or a 20 Gauge 870 Express that I can toss behind the seat without cringing. That's where the real value in Remington's 870 line is.
 
There is only a 3 ounce difference with the 12 gauge but in the 20 there is more than 1/2 a pound. And since I only use 20s that is significant.

How much are the Ithacas?
 
The actual street price on a new Wingmaster will be about $650. Not sure what a Browning will actually sell for but based on other Brownings I have priced they sell for pretty close to MSRP. There may not be as much difference as you think.

I own a couple of Wingmasters, 2 Express models and have had a Browning in the past. I did not like the Browning nearly as well. Too heavy as ArmedBear has stated. If I was going to spend $600-$700 on a pump I would put a little more with it and get a nice auto.

The Express is probaply the best value. I actually wish Remington would drop the Express name and offer a budget gun somewhere between the current Wingmaster and Express in quality and price. They have cut more corners on the Express than I like. Stop trying to compete with Mossberg for the budget market and make a quality gun that will sell for around $450-$500.
 
Gun Tests rated the Browning at 7.5 lbs. in 20 Gauge. IMO Browning lies about their weights sometimes. I would, too, if I made guns as heavy as some of theirs!

WRT Ithaca prices, too much! But you do get what you pay for: a pump gun that's built and finished like a $2500 O/U. Considering that, the Ithaca isn't overpriced.

http://ithacagun.com/

However, there are many used ones in shops for a lot less. The new ones may be even nicer, but the balance of these guns has always been excellent. For field use, an old Ithaca can sometimes be had, in decent "working gun" condition, for less than a new Express.
 
I actually wish Remington would drop the Express name and offer a budget gun somewhere between the current Wingmaster and Express in quality and price.
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Yeah, an 870 Hunter or something might be a great gun, say a dull blue finish -- not rough like an Express, but not polished like a Wingmaster, and utility-grade wood with a good shape to it and a durable finish.

Beretta used to make an O/U with satin finish barrels. No frills, but good quality and balance, and a good price. I think they may have found they were undermining their own market.
 
So... you want Remington to build a gun thats fit&finish is better than an Express but worse than a Wingmaster, just so you can justify saving $150-$200 on a purchase that you won't even remember a year from now??? Just pony up for the damn Wingmaster.
 
No, I actually don't WANT a shiny blue and gloss varnish gun for what I want a pump for.

I'd like the LC barrel and the Wingmaster stock shape in a gun that begs to be hunted with.

As it stands, I have to toss a nice old SxS or a shiny O/U in the mud when I have to take a piss. I want a field gun if I get a pump.
 
I had my first Wingmaster parkerized (manganese phosphate) so this is essentially what I have. Fit of a Wingmaster with a dull, durable finish. Works for me.
 
Worth it?

Worth what?

Who says you have to buy new? There are thousands upon thousands of good used Wingmasters out there selling for less than MSRP for a new gun. 870s don't wear out- they wear IN (except for high round count trap/skeet guns- high round count being about 250,000 rounds, at that). Get to know 870s well enough that you can pick out one in good mechanical shape (not hard to do, mostly what you have to look out for is kitchen table gun butchery) and start shopping your local dealers.

I have yet to buy a new 870 and I've been shooting them for 40 years or so. And I brought home yet another one just yesterday (an Express Youth Model 20 ga.) to replace the one my neice took home with her just before Christmas. She came down for a weekend session of Defensive Shotgun 101, and that's the gun she picked from the half dozen or so laid out on the table at the range after shooting them all. And its the gun she trained with too. She plans on some claybirding and wingshooting with it as well using it for house gun duties. DW and I promised her a shotgun for Christmas while we were visiting over Thanksgiving, and she drove five hours one way to pick it out and get the training.

lpl
 
I'd prefer the Browning at 200 dollars MORE, personally. I don't care about weight, more the better for heavy duck and goose loads. Might swing a little slow on early teal, but I'd adapt. I've got a side by side and a light Winchester auto for doves. The Browning has infinitely better ergos, especially for a south paw shooter. Also, out of the box, the Browning fits me better. But, of course, that can be fixed. Me, I'd want a camo one, maybe a 10 gauge camo one. :D
 
In my opinion the original 870 special purpose was the best of the 870's and what I wish they would bring back. I've only seen 2 and I have one of them. Mine has a 26" barrel with all metal parkerized, not the matte blue they use now. All internal parts are the same as the Wingmasters, no shortcuts were made. It has a real walnut stock with cut checkering in a dull finish. I cannot imagine a better hunting shotgun.

In my opinion the 870 design is far superior to the Mossberg, but in an effort to sell the 870 at a price point competetive with the Mossberg they have cut too many corners. Most new shooters cannot see any real difference between the 870 and 500. I say they should let Mossberg have the budget market and build a gun that is clearly better and sell it at a fair price.

The Wingmaster is a beautiful gun, but at that price range not many people are going to buy a pump to take duck hunting. Most will jump straight to a semi-auto or double. I would gladly pay $450 for an 870 that was clearly better than an Express or Mossberg 500. In fact that seems to be the market that the Benelli Nova is after.
 
Like Lee, I buy used 870s and haven't worn any out yet.

Number Two here was an Arlington VA cruiser gun. A different barrel, some small mods and it's a venison gitter and backup HD tool to love.

Frankenstein's receiver, action bars and sundry other parts started off at MD's notorious Pen.

The only new 870 here out of the six I've owned in the 20 gauge YE I got for the kids late in the 80s or early in the 90s. it now wears an adult sized stock and has pretensions of being a great bird gun.

I doubt I'll ever buy a new 870, but any real deal in the used dept may just get snatched up PDQ.
 
I doubt I'll ever buy a new 870, but any real deal in the used dept may just get snatched up PDQ.
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Amen to that! My recently purchased used 870 WM only cost me $300. I am not sure I would trade it for a new one. I find them fun and economical to partially restore good enough to give to relatives or maybe to some deserving kid on a trap team to get started. I just gave away the third one, and I still believe I get more out of seeing them shoot it than they do!

That all being said...

I am also a BIG fan of the BPS. Holding the 870 and BPS both here side by side for the last few minutes, I couldn't really tell you which feels heavier. Both have 28 inch modified choke barrels. I prefer wood and blue guns. The blueing and finish on the BPS is superior. The tradition and ease of disassembly go to the 870WM. I don't worry too much about parts availability. Both have been made many years. I only hope to shoot either of them enough to need parts:)
 
Price differences new seem closer to $225 between the Browning and the Wingmaster from what I can find.
I don't really have a dog in this hunt because I already have a Wingmaster ('76 vintage) and have no intention of buying any more shotguns any time soon.
But, define value. It is a gun that points and feels and shoots right for me, that I also like the looks of, for not more money that I am willing to pay. The new Wingmaster is touching the top of that envelope. I might decide I could live with a wood stocked Express. I know I could live with a used Wingmaster.
Browning, Winchester, Benelli, Ithaca, none of the others are even in the running because 1) they do not feel and point as good to me, or 2) I do not like having to load thru the magazine. I take it back, frankly I hate it. I have shot all of them, and owned 3 BPSs and an Ithaca. There is nothing I am aware of wrong with any of them, I mainly just prefer a different feel.
I am wondering if Remington has swung so much of their business over to the Expresses that the cost of making so many fewer Wingmasters has pushed them even higher. It looks like the same thing is going on with Remington's high end semi autos, but everyone else's are just higher than all get out too so you don't really notice it as much. I don't know if there is much of a fit and finish competitor to the Wingmaster left aside from a select few BPSs and Ithacas in any event.
 
I get pretty tired of people bashing the Express. Do you people get your opinions out of gun magazines or something because I've yet to see the first problem with my Express.
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I think I'll pick a series of guns and start bashing them every time someone mentions them. Maybe I can create a mythology about certain models. Let's see. This is a shotgun forum so I'll start with a Nova. Man those things just aren't up to true quality standards. IMO they should stop making them until they can figure out how to make a shotgun right. Everyone knows their junk. Just ask me.
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I'm not a moderator King, but chill out man! This is a shotgun forum for all of us to enjoy. While some buy a Ford and are happy with it for 100K miles, others prefer to pay for basically the same car in a Lincoln for the same 100K miles even though it costs much more. Neither is wrong, but each will tell you why he prefers one over the other. The same goes for Rem Express shotguns. I am tickled you enjoy yours. Because I prefer the WM doesn't make me right or you wrong!
 
I've even hammered the 'lesser' extractor. Once I pulled it out from behind the seat for the first time in months, and shot straight through a case of S&B birdshot in a couple of hours. (We were shooting hard and fast at a lot of clay birds.) Still there, still perfect. I'm not sure what you have to do to make one fail, but I haven't figured it out yet.
 
The Wingmaster isn't supposed to be the value gun, thats the Express. The WM is supposed to be the top of the range. You pay extras for that.
 
Buying a new Wingmaster for $650 makes no sense from a price standpoint when you can buy a new Express for around $240. The total sales of Wingmasters have dropped to the point where it is now solely a niche product for people who want a beautiful looking pump and don't care about the price.
 
The Special Purpose 870 introduced in the early 80's was designed to be the in-between gun. Same as the Wingmaster internally but with a parkerized finish.

But even that wasn't enough to satisfy the demands for a cheaper 870 which begat the Express.

I've owned a variety of 870s both Express and Wingmaster.

With the Express you get what you pay for.

You do with the Wingmaster as well.
 
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