Is the A1-style AR-15 upper making a comeback?

[DMK]

Here's a couple variations I just threw together.

M16 upper, no forward assist, has an XS sight systems same plane sight, 1/12 twist lightweight barrel (shortened to about 18" or 19" during the AWB dark years to put it on a post ban lower), A2 round handguards, the lower is a DPMS A2 with an RRA NM trigger, ergo grip, an RRA 6 pos. collapsable stock, and a modern black teflon coated 30 round mag

Same upper on an Eagle Arms lower with all the same parts except a Cavalry Arms C1 stock (A1 length)

This one's almost retro all the way but not "correct", with an M16A1 upper with a forward assist (one of the ones CDNN was selling), three prong FS, has a DPMS A2 lower, but the furniture is a complete NOS set for the early M16 with no buttstock compartment (from back when they thought M16s didn't need cleaning kits )

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Nice combo! You're making me want to build a lightweight Dissy with an A1 upper.

Solid call, I'll let you know how the balance is once I get it done. With muzzle-heaviness being the main Dissy drawback, I'm curious to see how the M4 barrel changes things. It was either that or a fluted, and I think fluted would have cost a little bit more.

Have you seen this article by the late Mark Penman (MHRIP), which inspired more than a few of us toward Dissy? Note that he went fluted barrel, and said that it made the crucial difference.

http://www.jtk3.com/laissezfirearm/flutedar.htm

If not a collapsable, a Cav Arms C1 stock would go nicely with that.

That's my backup plan. I'll sell the ACE and move on if the balance is wrong for a Dissy. I love the ACE, it's just that it's very lightweight.

I kinda like the combination of the best of retro and the best of modern. In muscle car circles we call that restifying.

You know, I've been trying to find that word for a month now. I was trying to describe "stock on the outside, tricked on the inside", and assumed that there had to be some gearhead term for that. I also really like the GI-style 1911, have a Sistema Colt currently, and think that if I ever go custom, it'll be just like the old WWI Colts, but with subtly better sights. There was some article in a gunrag about a high-end smith who was making very close WWI replicas (down to the rollmarks), but totally tuned with modern materials and techniques inside. I dig that.

Let me know if you start in on a Dissy project, and I'll get a writeup done on mine as soon as a certain company gets a certain product back in stock *cough*eaglefirearms.net*cough*. -MV

 

[f4t9r]

I like the A1

 

[DMK]

Solid call, I'll let you know how the balance is once I get it done. With muzzle-heaviness being the main Dissy drawback, I'm curious to see how the M4 barrel changes things. It was either that or a fluted, and I think fluted would have cost a little bit more.

Have you seen this article by the late Mark Penman (MHRIP), which inspired more than a few of us toward Dissy? Note that he went fluted barrel, and said that it made the crucial difference.

http://www.jtk3.com/laissezfirearm/flutedar.htm

I think I like yours better than his. The A1 upper is a nice touch and the M4 Dissy is a hair lighter than a fluted one.

Barrel Weight In Pounds ( for milled front sight subtract 0.2 pounds )

Barrel length_______Heavy Barrels______ Fluted Barrels

10"___________________2.0_________________1.9
11.5"________________ 2.2_________________2.0
14.5"________________ 2.5_________________2.2
16"___________________2.7_________________2.3
14.5"AK_______________2.7_________________2.4
14.5"MY_______________2.7_________________2.4
14.5"AM (phantom)_____2.7_________________2.4
11.5/5.5"____________ 2.6_________________2.5
16" Dissipator________3.0_________________2.6
20"___________________3.5_________________3.0
24"___________________3.9_________________3.1
26"___________________4.0_________________3.2

Military Style Barrels
16" Superlight________1.9
14.5"M4_______________2.0
14.5"M4AK____________ 2.2
14.5"M4MY____________ 2.2
14.5"M4AM (phantom)___2.2
16"M4_________________2.2
16"M4 Dissipator______2.3
20"A2(govt profile)___2.5

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Great Bushmaster post! Any chance you can post that on a thread as the "Definitive Bushmaster AR-15 Barrel Weights" or suchlike? I was trying to find exactly that info when I started my project. I kinda thought that the M4 Dissy barrel was lighter, but now I know that it is indeed .3 lbs lighter.

The upper still feels a little chunky, but I can't imagine how an HBAR Dissy would feel; that's probably a fair part of the reason that the Dissy isn't more popular, what with HBAR being standard these days. I know it's easier, but really. Still wondering if someone is going to step up to the platter and start affordably turning down the HBAR barrels on JLD's G3 clones, like KKF started the trend for Dissies.

-MV

 

[DMK]

Great Bushmaster post! Any chance you can post that on a thread as the "Definitive Bushmaster AR-15 Barrel Weights" or suchlike? I was trying to find exactly that info when I started my project. I kinda thought that the M4 Dissy barrel was lighter, but now I know that it is indeed .3 lbs lighter.

It's on Bushmaster's website. A search on THR will pick it up now.

http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=205&catid=103

The upper still feels a little chunky, but I can't imagine how an HBAR Dissy would feel; that's probably a fair part of the reason that the Dissy isn't more popular, what with HBAR being standard these days. I know it's easier, but really. Still wondering if someone is going to step up to the platter and start affordably turning down the HBAR barrels on JLD's G3 clones, like KKF started the trend for Dissies.

It probably just feels that way because you are only handling the upper. Once you get the whole rifle together and shoulder it, it will feel lighter.

I agree about the HBARs. Almost all of my ARs are either A1 profile or A2 profile. I only have one HBAR and it's a 16" midlength. I've almost sold it many times, but it's really accurate and I can't bear to part with it (free advice - always take a gun out and shoot it right before you make up your mind to sell it). I ended up free floating it with a tube, throwing bipod on it with a scope and use it for a benchrest or prone shooting gun. It feels as heavy as a boat anchor compared to my M16 clone, but rock steady with practically no recoil.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I'll definitely post the pic once I get the full thing assembled with my current parts. It'll either be inspiring, or else a cautionary tale as to putting a light stock on a Dissy.

Still torn on my "retro-izing" idea: it'd be cool to have triangular handguards, but I'm going to feel really petty if they smash to smithereens during a 3-gun match. I'll go for cool if cool is just a solid as practical, but on my main CF rifle, I'd hate to compromise sturdiness for cool.

I'll probably swing back the other direction once I hit my next planned film series: going to go watch all the Vietnam flicks available at the UT library. Been watching horror flicks over fall semester, which is not good for gun selection, but very good for "why the heck does nobody in these films have a gun?"

I'm severely stoked about my upper: I love iron sights, I love retro, I love snub-nosed, I love carbine. This should pretty much do it. Won't be so great for my 6'5" friends, but I'm a short guy and date short girls.

So long as I get a stock that properly balances the weight, I'm golden like showers. Mr Penman's article stated that his fluted Dissy w/A2 stock could comfortably be held out at arms-length one-handed. If I can find a proper stock to achieve such a balance, that'll be the ticket.

The main disadvantages to the A1 type: resale and optics. For resale, not terribly concerned. I plan to use this as my main rifle unless the upper is totally sUXX0r, and if it doesn't float my boat I'm sure an ARFer will buy it off me. For optics, a) if I can afford good optics, I can afford a new upper b) the AR is designed to be viewed at carry-handle level anyway c) the carry handle optics are pleasingly retro, and the OEG is reasonably affordable compared to all the new stuff.

Had I the cash, I'd build a uxb-style Son Tay rifle. As it is, I'll simply offer Mr uxb all the Shiner Bock he can drink if he'll bring his rifle down to Austin, on the condition that he let me shoot his rifle for the time it takes him to drink the Shiner. Heck, I'll spring for a keg. Slap it on an FA lower, and I'll bring a keg and a UT coed.

-MV

 

[MatthewVanitas]

A good pic showing Dissy proportions

This one is by Manx at AR15.com

He states that he has an A1 stock on it. In that case, I'd nominate A1 stock as being a great looking match for Dissy length. It makes it look almost like a mini 20". If the balance is good, I'd say that'd be a go.

I'll still give the ACE a whirl, but I'm starting to think that it's going to be kind of light. On the bright side, the length is pretty darn good for the "standing square" CQB position. When I blade my body to a target stance, it seems kinda tight, but when I face the target square-on, it's great. Then again, I'm doing this without a lower, trying to hold the stock about .5" away from the rear of the upper.

This is most unsat, I need a dang lower. There's some gunshop in Round Rock, TX that stocks Stag lowers. I found them once on the Net but can't Google them for the life of me since.

 

[uxb]

I'm a 5'3" Black Irish with a maternal grandmother who was full-blood Seminole.

So you had better make it Guinness instead of Shiner Bock. And instead of a UT co-ed it has to be a green-eyed read-headed Irish nun/nurse/gymnast. I'm not picky.

 

[sully]

Being that the A3 upper has now become the solid favorite among AR aficionados, and IIRC is now permitted in serveral iron-sight competitions when the carrying handle is attached, what does this bode for the future of the A1 and A2 upper?

Being that the main thing the A1 upper sacrifices to the A2 is ease of sight adjustability, and the A3 has all that and better, is it possible that those seeking an irons-only AR will opt for the A1 upper?

I note that Mr Sully's company is producing modern police/competition AR carbines with A1 sights, on the belief that the A2 sights are more susceptible to damage or slippage. I believe Mr Sully has even produced detachable A1 carrying handles, which is quite cool.

For my part, any day now my A1-upper'ed Dissipator should be arriving. I thought long and hard, decided that I wasn't likely to use optics on this upper, and thought that it seemed a little silly to have A2 sights on a plinking/contigency rifle, when the A1 was actually a few bucks cheaper and looks far more streamlined.

There's also the increase in retro-appeal with the A1. Lots of folks on www.ar15.com have great replica builds of famous ARs of the past. If you're going with the "obsolete" fixed carrying handle anyway, why not step a little further back and go A1?

Any other A1 fans out there, or am I just odd?

-MV (who almost bought the A1 Commando Bushy at Wade's in Seattle last week, $645, dangit...)

You are correct that we have an A1 Carry Handle (knobless). It is a thing of beauty. You put this on top of our ambidextrous upper receiver, and you the perfect set up IMHO.

If you like this, just wait until you see what else we have coming out!!!

CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
http://www.SLR15.com
http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com

 

[middy]

Hey sully, where can I order one of those?

 

[peabody]

now this is what im talking about !!!! great thread !!!

so how do i find/buy one of these knobless A1 carry handles ?


i do have a fulton armory A1 slickside upper, for a colt model 605 build.

but i'ed really like to have a knobless carry handle.

thanks.

peabody

 

[Detritus]

so how do i find/buy one of these knobless A1 carry handles

Unfortunately, it's been four and a half years since Sully made mention of having them. and at the current time they no longer appear on his company's website (least that i can see). demand may not have been enough to sustain keeping them on hand.

 

[peabody]

dang it !!! oh, well.. i sent sully a PM ?
maybe ?

he still around ?

this thread makes me want to putt my fulton armory A1 slickside upper on a no-dak lower,
and use this 1x9 twist pencil barrel i haves.
with triangular handguards, and my extra A1 stock...

how sweet would that be ??


peabody

 

[peabody]

just to make anoth point....?

i guess we could figger out ?

i do have a cnc machineshop, A1 carry handel, but its got huge knobs.

how could i use it and re-move the knobs ?

peabody

 

[IndianaBoy]

I have a reflex sight in a cantilever mount on the carry handle now, but my AR has A1 sights because they are superior to A2 sights.


A2 sights are perfect for a rifle intended to shoot High-Power. They are a flimsy excuse for sights on a rifle that might get knocked around. I don't like them.


If I somehow ever manage to break my Trijicon Reflex, I know with certainty that my iron sights haven't been moved out of adjustment since I last zeroed them.

 

[uxb]

Ok, a couple of things about the A1 upper receivers. These were previously only available as surplus or through places like Bushmaster, Fulton Armory, Delton or DPMS. Sadly the Delton, DPMS, and Fulton Armory receivers all have the slots cut for proprietary charging handles and mil-spec handles are too tight.

The surplus uppers are available but as they become more scarce the prices are increasing.

A company previously known for their AK receivers, NoDak Spud, is now making mil-spec retro upper receivers. They are making the mil-spec M16 receivers without the forward assist as well as the M16A1 upper receivers which feature the forward assist.

The receivers are 7075 T6 and are hard-coat anodized by Victor at US Anodizing.

In addition, for the retro purists, they are making slickside lowers (for the Model 601 and 602 rifles), partial fence lowers for XM16-E1s and various carbines, and full fence lowers for M16A1s, etc...

Here is their slickside lower with my original 601 upper receiver...



The partial fence lower...

And the full fence A1 lower receivers...

http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

[/Once a guy gets the doo dad virus out of his system, he realizes Stoner had it pretty right to begin with.QUOTE] This quite right I still have one with all the do dads but my first AR I have returned to stock condition and changed to an A1 upper. My next AR however will have the flat top, scope, and 20" bull for varmint hunting.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

I do have a question though. When I bought the A1 upper it was complete less barrel. The ghost ring on the rear sight has small (long distance) holes on both sides. When flipped back it is unmarked but when flipped forward it is marked with a "L" under the ghost ring. First question is are they different? Second does the L stand for long range? Lastly how should I zero this rifle? Specs: Aero A1 upper, 14.5" Bushmaster Hbar barrel, AK-74 style comp, and Bushmaster fixed front sight (not sure of front sight pin size/height).

 

[peabody]

yes, SX same plane , sights on a slickside.

im doing the same thing.

peabody