Is the BATF a "Gang"?

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Ignoring your tinhatted nonsense about ATF, you are completely wrong about the nature and scope of outlaw motorcycle gangs. They are organized crime at it's worst, and are not "petty criminals". They are no different than any of the other organized crime thugs who use violence to further their "business" and they are a huge danger to others.
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I'm the last person to put on a tinfoil hat. My feelings towards the BATF are based on what they've actually done and how they've behaved. They are animals.

The legends of a biker mob, on the other hand, are based on Sillywood myths that have permeated our culture since the 1950's. In reality they've never been more than street criminals. Yet a combination of those myths and sensational headlines about "biker invasions" have allowed the BATF, among other federal agencies, to spend a ton of our money investigating these alleged threats to moral decency. All we get in the end is amoral agents who ignore rape in order to stop anyone from selling the same drugs the Air Force gives to its own pilots.
 
The legends of a biker mob, on the other hand, are based on Sillywood myths that have permeated our culture since the 1950's. In reality they've never been more than street criminals.
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Perhaps you may want to do a little more research before making claims such as this.
All we get in the end is amoral agents who ignore rape in order to stop anyone from selling the same drugs the Air Force gives to its own pilots.
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There's a huge difference between the type of prescription amphetamines provided by trained, licensed physicians in monitored doses and the crystal methamphetine produced and distributed by, among other criminal organizations, certain outlaw biker gangs.

Gotta love a thread where folks leap to the defense of outlaw biker gangs while at the same time painting federal law enforcement organizations as bands of criminals organized into vast conspiracies to strip rights from American citizens. Only on THR ...
 
Maybe you should think about why so many law-abiding people have come to have such a low opinion of federal law enforcement. Like I said I'm not part of the tin foil brigade. I'm an attorney who's experiences with those people have left me with a very bad taste. I trust the troopers, I even trust the APD. I am confident that in the unlikely event one of them gets out of line I can write letters and have the situation resolved quickly. With the feds, you can forget it. Unless you have an inside line to their bosses in DC, there is no accountability.

It's not just a matter of enforcing unjust laws. The very nature of a law enforcement agency beholden only to a faceless, distant federal bureaucracy makes corruption inevitable.
 
It's all over the place on this thread...

I think the issue addressed in the original thread here is that people can recognize a mentality of the "us versus them" type with the ATF. But to call them a gang in the like of the Mongols is straight silly.

However the ATF certainly deserves much criticism over how they handle 2nd Amendment rights and how they have acted. Look no further then Waco, and the massive failure that ended killing even multiple children to be burned alive. A failure is a failure and the US taxpayer doesn't like agencies that run around saying they are right when they are wrong.

Now to address what someone said here:

Are they a gang? Hmm, yeah sure. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with gangs. Most of the time they usually just fight amongst themselves, for turf. Whatever the turf may be.
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In all due respect, I find that comment very ignorant. You should have a problem with gangs. Illegal gang activity is a huge problem, mostly tied to drug traffiking, theft, and intimidation. Everwhere they grow, they put a huge drain on LE services and our Justice System. Organized Crime is a big problem, and just because you don't happen to live in a neighborhood where it is a problem, should not mean you don't have a problem with it. Society pays, pays in taxes, pays in insurance rates, pays in human costs. They are a cancer, a pest, and are rats.
 
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Just to throw a few facts on the fire.

As to the legitamacy of the ATF:

Without the ATF, we would have never needed the FOPA (Firearm Owners Protection Act).

The abuses of the ATF are a matter of congressional record. Just think about how bad they had to be to end up being called onto the congressional carpet. Said abuses then prompted congress to write new law protecting gun owners. Not only that, the law passed, too. Bad ATF!

Currently the JPFO has some proof of current abuses. They even have some on video.

IOW, regarding the BATFE, it wouldn't take a huge intuitive leap to reason they are still abusing their power and nearly all of said abuse is not showing up in the media.
 
Maybe you should think about why so many law-abiding people have come to have such a low opinion of federal law enforcement.
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Ah ... actually, I have. And one of the things that I find truly ironic is that the vast, vast majority of law-abiding folks go through their entire lives without having ever personally encountered anyone in federal law enforcement. Which is why it's strange that so many have such a low opinion of organizations that these folks know of only by what's reported in the media (especially given the high opinions everyone on this board has of the media) -- or, gee whiz, by undocumented, anecdotal stories on internet forums. ...

Having worked alongside federal law enforcement, I don't believe that in agencies "beholden only to a faceless, distant federal bureaucracy" corruption is inevitable. I will certainly grant you that this arrangement makes inefficiency inevitable on some levels (and this must be dealt with), and yes, to a degree, accountability is often a problem. However, my observation is that there are more than enough intelligent people, possessed of adequate work ethic and integrity, working within the government, that the corruption that does occur will be regularly exposed and eradicated. It's the nature of bureaucracies that effectiveness and results are cyclical and the organizations are always in the process of change.
 
Risasi said:
Are they a gang? Hmm, yeah sure. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with gangs. Most of the time they usually just fight amongst themselves, for turf. Whatever the turf may be.
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odysseus said:
In all due respect, I find that comment very ignorant. You should have a problem with gangs. Illegal gang activity is a huge problem, mostly tied to drug traffiking, theft, and intimidation. Everwhere they grow, they put a huge drain on LE services and our Justice System. Organized Crime is a big problem, and just because you don't happen to live in a neighborhood where it is a problem, should not mean you don't have a problem with it. Society pays, pays in taxes, pays in insurance rates, pays in human costs. They are a cancer, a pest, and are rats.
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Okay, fair enough....I'll answer this one. I could see where my statement might be misleading. PM sent.

For the sake of this discussion I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll keep my public response brief:

I have had problems with gangs. In fact as a kid I have been in gangs. But I do agree, most are tied to drugs, theft, extortion, along with sex (vice) and kidnapping or other violent activities...

Organized crime a big problem? Yes and no, but hold it there a second. {We were talking about gangs. I see these as two different items. My definition of "gang" is; a group of people, good gangs and bad gangs are just subsets, as Organized Crime is a subset of gang. Some form gangs because they do the same things together, some do it for protection. Some do it as an organized crime syndicate, to deal in illegal items or services. Gangs are formed for all manner of crazy plans.}

Anyway...I agree society pays, at least with criminal gangs. Which brings me to one point with gangs. Even government sanctioned "gangs". They have always been with us, always will be. Anyway from the first time some bully got a friend in on the action when fighting a rival until now, we have had gangs. And you are not going to eliminate that. You can minimize them, and you can minimize the damage to you and your own. But that's it.
 
Many great posts but none hit the nail on the head. ATF's function is to collect taxes. Are taxes nothing more than extortion? And don't organized criminal gangs collect protection money? And don't both "gangs" do it with the threat of volence?
Just sharing my observations.
 
"Nice family you've got there. Be a shame if something happened to them. . . so, are you sure you don't want to become an undercover agent in the Aryan Nations?"
 
However, my observation is that there are more than enough intelligent people, possessed of adequate work ethic and integrity, working within the government, that the corruption that does occur will be regularly exposed and eradicated. It's the nature of bureaucracies that effectiveness and results are cyclical and the organizations are always in the process of change.
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OldDog, with all due respect, I cannot disagree more. The heart of this whole thread goes to law enforcement ethics. Especially with respect to firearms law enforcement. If what you claim were even remotely true we would not have this constant us vs. them, circle the wagons etc., and I'm not talking about on THR. Playing internet "ethical cop" is easy. Standing up in real life to speak out in public, when you are no longer anonymous, against other cops is a different thing all together. It almost never happens, if at all.


Tell me, what punishment did Lon Horiuchi get? Did you personally, without anonymity from your peers in law enforcement, speak out against his actions? Where were all the "ethical federal law enforcement people" you speak of? Surely ONE of them would have been newsworthy? What of the cases where F-Troop agents pile nearly priceless collectable guns on concrete while raiding hapless ffl's? Where were these ethical types then? These events are not "undocumented, anecdotal stories on internet forums. ...". They were videotaped.


I submit that the opposit of what you claim is true. LEO's, at least the vast majority of them, are ethically challenged. Equal protection of the law does not occur when leo's are involved. You call it "professional courtesy". What it is is UNETHICAL. Why do local sheriffs deputies get to thumb their noses at the NFA? It would cost me 10 years. From the federal level to the parking maid, corruption and lack of ethics pervades law enforcement. From Lon Horiuchi beating a murder wrap, sherriff's deputies avoiding NFA prosecution, all the way down to waving "the brass pass" to get out of a speeding ticket, law enforcement personel are severely lacking in ethics.


I.C.
 
These events are not "undocumented, anecdotal stories on internet forums. ...". They were videotaped.
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And indeed, if there are events that are videotaped -- that speaks to the heart of my statement:
the corruption that does occur will be regularly exposed and eradicated.
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In a country that is not free, in a country in the grasp of a government conspiracy to subvert the rights of citizens, no one would ever see such tapes, nor would anyone become aware of their existence.
LEO's, at least the vast majority of them, are ethically challenged. Equal protection of the law does not occur when leo's are involved
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Now that's simply a statement which you cannot possibly support, not personally knowing the vast majority of LEOs. What on earth would you base a remark such as that on? Or are you simply trying to get a reaction from those who actually know better?
 
Now that's simply a statement which you cannot possibly support, not personally knowing the vast majority of LEOs. What on earth would you base a remark such as that on? Or are you simply trying to get a reaction from those who actually know better?
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OldDog, I absolutely can support it. The whole point is that even though those events were videotaped NOTHING happened. I guess you think that merely exposing the event is sufficient??? And I base my statement on the FACT that these "ethical" people you are talking about are nowhere to be found. NONE of these supposed leo's were seen publicly condemning these acts. A few politicians whoring for votes maybe, but no leo's from the masses. My grandfather used to say "Boy, character is what you do when noone is watching you." How many events like this are not videotaped? My roadside beating wasn't videotaped, neither was the "fight" I got into with the sheriff in his office when I filed formal complaints against the thugs who did it. Nothing was done about that either.

How many events go un"exposed" and of those "exposed" how mana are "eradicated"? How many agents were prosecuted for Waco? Were any even fired!? What about the abuses by IRS and F-Troop thugs destroying peoples property? Even when no charges were subsequently filed! :fire: A letter of reprimand is NOT "eradication". It's more like "Gee, we're sorry you got caught. We have to place this letter in your file to please the serfs, but in the meantime please accept this promotion as a token of our appreciation of your hard work." :barf:

A reaction, yeah I DO want a reaction. I want you and DMF and ALL the other leo's on here to walk the walk of this ethical TALK your doing. Until then you can consider my point proven. I "fought" for equal justice against an overly corrupt leo community in my town. We eventually got the sherriff ousted, the police chief fired and a whole bunch of others dealt with too. You know what, all these "ethical" types fought us tooth and nail the whole way. The citizens of this community finally said ENOUGH! We made it better IN SPITE OF these ethical types you speak of. And as anyone who has dared to take on the system will tell you, they will get even with you. Even though I eventually came out on top, the amount of time and money and worry I spent can never be recovered. It shouldn't have to be that way. If even a shred of what you claim were true it wouldn't be that way either, because the police would "police" themselves.


I.C.
 
The agent said that he was so moved he almost cried. He also said that not one of his fellow ATF agents offerred thier condolences or even sent a card.
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Yes, because the thing an undercover agent in a violent biker gang really needs is a bunch of condolence cards, phone calls, and visits from other BATF agents. :D
 
DMF posted:
ATF, ICE BREAK UP MAJOR CONTRABAND
CIGARETTE TRAFFICKING RING
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DMF posted this to show that BATFers could be seen to be highly motivated to do other things. Any sales manager knows that for your sales staff to sell a product to lots of customers, he first has to sell his sales staff on the product. So, F-Troopers, DEA, FBI, etc are indoctrinated daily with the evils of whatever they are charged to investigate, be they guns, pseudoephedrine, Winstons, or citizens guarding the porous border of southern Arizona.

Rick
 
The legends of a biker mob, on the other hand, are based on Sillywood myths that have permeated our culture since the 1950's. In reality they've never been more than street criminals. Yet a combination of those myths and sensational headlines about "biker invasions" have allowed the BATF, among other federal agencies, to spend a ton of our money investigating these alleged threats to moral decency.
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So organized crime of any nature is just a sillywood myth?

A few years back, there was a pretty big gang war between the Outlaws and Hells Angels in Southern Wisconsin and Northern Illinois. There were dozens of murders, arsons, extortions and other crimes going on. There was even a large manufacturing company in Wisconsin that was heavily entrenched with Outlaw gang members who extorted money from other workers, the Union there, and the company itself with threats of violence against employees.
 
Hi, ho, Mr Calm, Crop here:

Yer in big trouble now. I can see big yellow happyfaces with rolling eyes coming. Charges of unproven, unsupported, anecdotal internet reports and like that.

One of the posters previous said....
However, my observation is that there are more than enough intelligent people, possessed of adequate work ethic and integrity, working within the government, that the corruption that does occur will be regularly exposed and eradicated.
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Yuk, yuk. Talk about unverifiable anecdotal internet tales.

I too have been accused by their minions of dreaming up unverifiable anecdotal tales to make .gov look bad. Not a problem.

[unverifiable anecdotal internet tale] When I think of a .gov minion I usually visualize "The Wizard of Oz" movie and those really ugly monkey looking things with the wings and the long tails that worked for the really ugly witch with the hawk nose and the big black pointy hat that wanted the red slippers back from Dorathy. I can, in my mind's eye, see the nasty witch looking into her crystal ball at Dorathy and one of those minions crouching at the window as bunches of them flew around outside. Too bad it was in black and white. Now THAT was a .gov minion. [/unverifiable anecdotal internet tale]

Sometimes it helps to visualize.

disclaimer:
The previous unverifiable anecdotal tale does not reference any member of THR, nor should it be subsequentially inferred as such.

This is The High Road.

If there is a more descriptive example of a minion, please elucidate.
 
Old Dog, I agree with the sentiment ,but one question....

If we have people of such "integrity" in this organization, then why is the '86 ban/NFA still in effect :confused: :uhoh:?
 
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