Is the death of fine machining, high polish, and quality metal treatments upon us?

[Slamfire]

Folks want cheap - all one has to do is read the threads here and elsewhere about wanting everything as cheap as possible - whether it is guns, cleaning supplies, ammo/components, etc.

That is the truth. Must be a “What is the best cheapest scope” thread every week.

Guys we are living in great times. The machining today is better than it has ever been. Firearms are made so exactly that “Forensic Science” bullet matching no longer works. Used to be that tool marks could identify individual firearms, now that is not so. Each barrel and chamber is so exactly the same in the population that law enforcement can’t distinguish between guns of the same model.

My Kimber was the first M1911 I owned that really showed me that advanced manufacturing techniques could produce a really tightly fitted M1911. My series 80’s Colt all rattled. This did not. I don’t think it was handfitted.
A bud went to the machine shop which was machining these Les Baer frames. One frame was being machined with a cutting tool, the previous frame had its cut measured with a computer probe. The dimensional wear caused by tool wear was being fed back and compensated real time to the cutting machine.


This Les Baer wadcutter shows evidence of hand fitting, but even so it is the tightest and most accurate M1911 I ever owned. Since the fitters start out with perfect parts they can build target pistols that shoot inside those AMU pistols of the past.


I don't feel the urge to do this, but you can get on the web and find inflation calculators. Just plug in the price of a Registered S&W and find out what that would cost in today's money.

I do know that those $12.95 guns of the 60's would cost over $200.00. The deterioration of the dollar hides the value added that modern machining gives us.

I don't like plastic guns. I will acknowledge that they are working out very well, have cut costs on things, but I am going to sit on the sidelines another 20 years and see how they are doing before I jump in that brier patch.

 

[MIgunguy]

rather than actually building a relationship with their local dealer. Greed.
LOL, now that's funny. 95% of gun dealers or "salespeople" are people I wouldn't WANT a "relationship" with even if you pay me. They're miserable, angry people.

 

[rozziboy18]

Two pieces of metal can come together in such a way that even complex joints appear to be one solid piece of metal, and all of it buffed to perfection then blued so deep that it appears to be liquid coal.

most beautiful thing i have ever heard in regards to firearms! sounded like the opening lines of a gun porno!

 

[SuperNaut]

It is interesting that we are essentially living the dream of LeBlanc, Jefferson, Washington, and Whitney. CNC machining is the culmination of their shared interchangeable parts dream that freed us from the need to rely on hand-fitted import rifles. I'm sure those hand-fitted rifles looked great while the men trying to stuff balls down the incorrectly sized barrels were mown down in front of Washington's eyes.

It is also interesting to hear people complain about parts incompatibility while simultaneously complaining about modern machining and MIM or plastic parts. No one has done so in this thread (yet) but I've heard it before multiple times.

 

[easyg]

CNC machining is the culmination of their shared interchangeable parts dream that freed us from the need to rely on hand-fitted import rifles.

Good point.

I love the fact that I can strip down my Glock, and if a part is worn, I can just order a replacement part with total confidence that it's going to work, no "handfitting" from a gunsmith required.

 

[huntsman]

Is the death of fine machining, high polish, and quality metal treatments upon us?

As long as the gun buyer is willing to do a "fluff and buff" on a factory new gun then YES, it's the gun buying public who votes with his dollars.

 

[BCRider]

There's one other aspect that hasn't been covered so far in the cost of modern guns.... liability insurance.

I don't know what the cost of insuring a gun companies products are against lawsuits but I know that the cost of insurance forced Piper out of the private aviation industry. They eventually got back into making planes but the cost was raised far, far, far more than simple inflation would have required.

What does it cost to make a few dozen parts these days? Certainly not the cost that we are paying for the modern mass produced Glocks and such and likely not even for the finely finished limited production offereings from such places the S&W Classic line. I'm willing to bet that insurance is a very significant slice of the cost pie. All of which meand that we need to pay even more to get the quality levels we desire.

 

[harmon rabb]

Are you so thin skinned about Glock criticism that you see it in a post that doesn't mention it?

Actually, I don't like my Glock very much. I much prefer my XD... and much prefer my nice 1911 over that XD I own way more steel guns than polymer guns.

I am just irked by the guys who utterly ignore that polymer guns work.

 

[Pete D.]

Yes....as others have said.....many, many shooters want cheap. How often do we see posts requesting the best cheap gun compared to "I want the best gun that money can buy." ?
Quality workmanship costs....fewer and fewer shooters are willing to pay for it (or to wait for it if they have to save for a while).
Pete

 

[Just One Shot]

I want to address the issue of being cheap.




Just because someone wants to get the best bang for their buck (pun intended) doesn't mean they're cheap. Not everyone has the disposable income to buy the most expensive handgun out there.

Some people have responsibilities that outweigh their desire to have one of the high end handguns. Does that mean they shouldn't buy ANY handgun until they can afford to go for the most expensive?

If life has taught me anything it's that the most expensive isn't always the best. I have read and heard of numerous accounts of problems with high end, expensive handguns that cost double of what I paid for some of mine.

While I could go out and purchase a $2000.00 hand gun, I much rather go out and buy 2 or 3 lesser expensive, dependable handguns. Does that make me cheap? Hardly, I'm still spending $2000.00 but I'm spreading it around and adding variety to my safe.

If a person does the research they can find quality firearms for reasonable prices. If a Mossberg will do the same job as a Saiga or a S&W M&P the same as an HK Tactical is there any reason, other than pride, to lay out the extra money for the more expensive brand?

Sometimes it's about limited income and sometimes it's about preference. If you're the type of person that has the funds and likes the high end guns then by all means, go out and get them. But, don't be critical of your fellow shooters who either can't afford to or choose to do otherwise. After all, we're all part of the same fraternity are we not?

 

[18DAI]

Todays handgun buyers are willing to pay more for less.

Todays handgun manufacturers are willing to give them what they want.

I'm glad that so many fine handguns were produced in years past. I have more than I need in my collection, just not as many as I want.

I just picked up a Performance Center model 15-8 in bright nickel. I paid under $600, and it is so much better made than the crap S&W is peddaling today. Made in 2001 the PC 15-8 was one of the last decent revolvers to come out of S&W.

You folks who are buying the guns made today, have at it. I'll pass. TJ

 

[Old Fuff]

Accept for argument only that "older is better."

On one side we have those that argue that today's firearms may be made using less expensive materials and fabrication methods, but they are better "tools for the job," then older ones.

On the other side, the argument offered is that the older firearms were handcrafted, better finished, represented superior quality; but can't be made today because the way they were produced would result in a product that was so expensive that they were beyond what most consumers were able or willing to pay.

But I have found that if you believe that older is better, you often find them selling for attractive prices which are at or below what current guns of a similar kind are selling for - and this especially true when it comes to revolvers unless you are looking for a make or model that's in high demand.

It gets even better if you are willing to accept a revolver that has some cosmetic wear with everything that counts (mechanical condition and a flawless bore and chambers) in perfect condition. If you are going to carry or use the proposed purchase why is a like-new finish important? Obviously before long it won't still be the same regardless of how well it is cared for.

So for example, I fail to understand those that get so upset over internal locks and MIM parts when a solution is so easily at hand. While I often explain my objections to these and other features in currently made revolvers, none of it causes me any problems. I don't happen to own any S&W revolvers that have an internal lock or MIM parts. The closest I can get is a Taurus model 85 LW that has both, but I was offered the gun at a firesale price that I chose not to turn down.

If others want to they can follow the same path I do. High quality doesn't necessarily mean high cost.

 

[Sam1911]

But I have found that if you believe that older is better, you often find them selling for attractive prices which are at or below what current guns of a similar kind are selling for

This is another wonder of the age in which we live -- or at least the age which is drawing to a close.

There is an odd perception sometimes that cost is necessarily related to quality.

What is something "worth" vs. what is its "quality" vs. what is its selling price?

Whether you are looking at old S&W revolvers, old Remington or Winchester shotguns, or any of a huge number of old military-surplus firearms, we laugh at folks who pay "too much" (meaning over the common selling price at the moment) for a firearm that in reality would cost thousands of dollars to make today.

I've been laughed at for telling a new hunter on a budget that he should consider putting $250 into an old Marlin or Remington 760, or a well-sporterized Springfield, etc. Instead, he's pushed to buy a very low-end new-manufactured rifle. (Or to put his rent money into an expensive new mid-high end one.)

If you really want that old version of quality, it can still be had for a very reasonable price -- you just have to look a bit and accept the wrinkles that come with age.

The flip side to this is that, in a very competative market as exists today, if you do buy a new gun, you probably are getting it for close to its "value." When you consider the level of detail, finish, precision, value of materials, labor invested in producing it, costs of insurance and costs to do business -- vs. the relatively low costs that we pay for most firearms these days, you probably just about DO get your money's worth.

Now, that doesn't make some people happy at all, when they face what their money is really worth...

 

[CraigC]

Not everyone has the disposable income to buy the most expensive handgun out there.

Not everyone who buys quality has piles of money laying around that they're wondering what to do with. Some of us work hard for our money and are willing to scrimp and save to buy the things that are important to us. I don't have $3000 laying around to spend on my next custom Ruger single action but I'm willing to save my money and do without certain things to pay for it.

99% of the time affordability is a choice. It has been my experience that people 'will' afford the things that are important to them. One gent will say that he can't afford XXX amount for a new gun, but how much will he spend on beer and cigarettes in a six month period? How much will he spend on cable TV? How much is the payment on the new car he didn't need? How much did he pay for his Playstation? How much does he spend on going out every Friday night?

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers or mind anybody's business. We all have to set our priorities as individuals. Should you let your kids starve because you want a new Colt? Hell no! I just don't care to hear somebody complain they can't afford $500 for a new gun while they're burning $200-$300 worth of cigarettes every month. It's all about priorities. Most folks 'can' afford what's important to them.

 

[Zach S]

CNC machining is not like using Microsoft Word.

CAD/CAM is a lot harder than a lot of people think.

As someone who is actually interested in CAD/CAM, I'm surprised by how many people think any "laborer" can just sit down and start making parts with no skill.

The CAD/CAM is used by the engineers, not the guys pushing the buttons. So, from an operator's point of view, he's making the parts.

And some of us have to fix what engineering screwed up... It happens pretty often to me, since we don't have engineering support on graveyard shift.

 

[huntsman]

And some of us have to fix what engineering screwed up...

I can tell you from experience that programmers don't screw up it's always operator error

 

[Just One Shot]

Not everyone who buys quality has piles of money laying around that they're wondering what to do with. Some of us work hard for our money and are willing to scrimp and save to buy the things that are important to us. I don't have $3000 laying around to spend on my next custom Ruger single action but I'm willing to save my money and do without certain things to pay for it.

99% of the time affordability is a choice. It has been my experience that people 'will' afford the things that are important to them. One gent will say that he can't afford XXX amount for a new gun, but how much will he spend on beer and cigarettes in a six month period? How much will he spend on cable TV? How much is the payment on the new car he didn't need? How much did he pay for his Playstation? How much does he spend on going out every Friday night?

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers or mind anybody's business. We all have to set our priorities as individuals. Should you let your kids starve because you want a new Colt? Hell no! I just don't care to hear somebody complain they can't afford $500 for a new gun while they're burning $200-$300 worth of cigarettes every month. It's all about priorities. Most folks 'can' afford what's important to them.

Good point and well said!

 

[JohnBiltz]

What is quality?

See this is where things awry. To me quality is reliability, durability and it does the job it was intended to do. Its not prettiness. I don't believe price is tied to quality. Price is often tied to brand not to quality.

Lets take a beloved example, the 1911. The 1911 that made the legend was a cheap mass produced weapon that was turned out by typewriter and sewing machine companies in WWII in great numbers. They rattled when shook. It had names of endearment like "old slab sides". If you read books in the 60s the guys carrying them were throwbacks to cavemen. Mickey Spillane type guys. Nothing elegant about them. If I had to choose an example of the modern equivalent it would be Glock, except Glock is more accepted. Somewhere that changed.

I buy a watch to tell the time not to be jewelry. I buy guns to shoot them not stare at them or hang on the wall. I don't care what my carry looks like because its concealed. I do care how well it functions. That is quality to me.

 

[Autolycus]

I am a fan of polymer guns myself. However I think as many others do that the cost of materials and labor has had an affect on things. Overall I see polymer guns as the new standard. Sig and 1911s are nice but they are expensive. I wanted a reliable gun that I can customize and would work well. I found Glock.

Glock is the new 1911 in my opinion.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

To me quality is reliability, durability and it does the job it was intended to do. Its not prettiness. I don't believe price is tied to quality. Price is often tied to brand not to quality.

I like it! Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Millwright]

RKBA,

You're so far off base on this one as to defy description !

First off, if you want that "hand-worked beauty" its readily available - if you're willing to wait for a couple of years and spend several month's salary. Doesn't mean your jewel will be any better, performance wise, than the same one off the line, either. Most mfgs. have "custom shops" to deal with those whose ego, wallet, or insecurity demands something more.

Modern machining methods - taking into account tool wear, heat and alloy characeristics - make the sort of "perfectly handcrafted fitted accuracy" available to us all for a price less than several months' mortage. An important distinction, as those glorious fifties guns cost about a month's wages - or far more - 'back in da' day'......

Modern materials also offer benefits not available in yesteryore........Now your 'every day carry' doesn't need a nightly strip and oiling to counter the effects of perspiration or environment. Contact surfaces will stay corrosion free.

Worried about the need to leave your wood-stocked deer rifle outdoors in deer camp ? No Problem - if it sports a synthetic stock. After a week of rain are you faced with a long shot on that OILT Alaskan Caribou hunt ? No Zero Problem if your stock is synthetic !

IOW, most of what you deem "desirable", no 'gun type' would disagree with RKBA, but most of us opt for far more practical and economic solutions..... >MW

 

[CraigC]

No matter how much condescension is tied to the word "pretty", fit and finish are major factors in determining "quality". It's interesting to me how many folks tend to look at highly finished firearms as if they offend their masculine sensibilities.

 

[JohnBiltz]

More like my economic sensibilities and pretty does not count in a fight. I buy guns to do things with them not look at them. Nor am I locked in some kind of nostalgia for the past, we are in a golden age of firearms right now.

 

[GLOOB]

Todays handgun buyers are willing to pay more for less.

Todays handgun manufacturers are willing to give them what they want.

Is a Honda Civic "less" of a car than a hand-built Ford Model T? They are much, much cheaper, comparatively. If you were Jay Leno, you might want to buy a Model T. But I bet you wouldn't drive it to work everyday. People who buy Honda Civics use them for transportation, not to pass on to their children as heirlooms.

Here's another thought for you. The older stamped slide SIG's are generally considered superior to today's milled slide versions. I know it's not because the stamped slide was superior, but it points to the fact that sometimes good enough is - well, good enough. You could have someone milling and fitting each of the internal metal parts of a Glock. But it wouldn't make it any better than a gun made with stamped parts, so what's the point?

Some very smart people have come up with incredible gun designs that can be manufactured cheaper than the guns of past generations. These guns operate without hand-fitting, by design. And while modern nitro-carbeurized finishes might not pull the heart strings like a good hot bluing, they sure work a lot better. If I could do a tennifer finish in my kitchen, all my firearms and steel tools would have it.

This question divides people in the same way as Harleys vs sport bikes. On the one hand, you have machines where each part is chosen and crafted with aesthetics in mind. Every part that can be is carefully sculpted, chromed out and polished. (Hmm, every time I look at the sculpted slide stop on my Cougar, I think it's kind of silly how much machining went into it just to make it look cool. Other people will look at it and admire the Italian styling.) On the other hand, we have a bike where every part is designed for perfomance-to-weight ratio, then a sheet of plastic is slapped over the sides to hide the innards. (And to some, THIS is beautiful!). One isn't objectively better than the other... well, unless you put them on a race track.

 

[CraigC]

I buy guns to do things with them not look at them.

As do I, all my guns get used. No matter what they cost or how good they look. I just don't view them as soulless tools so I like them to be well-crafted. They are my passion and that goes well beyond just stuff that "simply works".