Is there any fire hazard to target shooting?
- Thread starter DMK
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Jackal
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Of course sparks wont ALWAYS start a fire, but sparks ARE the most used method throughout human history to START fires. I've been on a fire line, when conditions are right, it takes almost nothing to spark a wildfire.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Those with enough experience in a variety of conditions have seen it happen.
Those who haven't seen it happen may just have been lucky.
I have been lucky myself, but with the local horizons misty brown from multiple wildfires, I won't push my luck. I will wait for rains to return before shooting in the woods.
Those who haven't seen it happen may just have been lucky.
I have been lucky myself, but with the local horizons misty brown from multiple wildfires, I won't push my luck. I will wait for rains to return before shooting in the woods.
Personally I think that all you guys that claim to have seen fires start are full of it, typical jumping on the band wagon to look like you're an expert. I'm 59 years old and have been shooting since I was 9 years old. I grew up and lived in Arizona most of that time and I retired from the Marine Corps so I think I'm well experienced at what bullets will do and I've never seen a standard FMJ start a fire - anywhere at any time. You who were in the military and say you saw it happen, you're either not very aware of what ammo is used in a military exercise or you simply aren't taking the time to think about it. I've seen several fires started while we doing field exercises at Camp Pendleton, Ca. so I know it happens, but we also had a full exercise going with air support, artillery, machine guns, etc, and we had a standard mix of tracers and FMJ. The odds of a stray spark of heavy enough mass actually starting a fire in unusually dry tinder in the California desert during the summer is greatly enhanced when you're firing thousands of rounds a minute rather than 2 or 3 rounds a minute. Honestly gents, you need to slow down and put things in to context rather than help spread a bunch of propaganda.
Studies have been done that prove that the test conditions required to start a fire are a high angled steel or stone target, low humidity (16% or less), high temperatures (90 degrees or more), and extremely fine, light combustibles, pretty much like an Arizona summer desert condition. If your shooting conditions don't match up to these then I wouldn't worry about it.
Here's a thought, when the liberals convince everyone that lead bullets are bad for the environment and we all switch to solid copper bullets, then the liberals are going to tell use we can't use them either because they are starting fires and destroying the environment too and we can all thank you guys that helped spread their manure.
Studies have been done that prove that the test conditions required to start a fire are a high angled steel or stone target, low humidity (16% or less), high temperatures (90 degrees or more), and extremely fine, light combustibles, pretty much like an Arizona summer desert condition. If your shooting conditions don't match up to these then I wouldn't worry about it.
Here's a thought, when the liberals convince everyone that lead bullets are bad for the environment and we all switch to solid copper bullets, then the liberals are going to tell use we can't use them either because they are starting fires and destroying the environment too and we can all thank you guys that helped spread their manure.
A spark starts a fire by transferring heat to a combustible. A spark of larger mass will hold and transfer more heat energy faster than a smaller mass spark. Sparks from a wildfire are pieces of the burning trees while the sparks from a bullet impact are small pieces of the bullet, one can literally be inches long while the other wont be any more than a few thousandths of an inch long. It's pretty easy to see that the sparks from a wildfire will have much more mass than the sparks from a bullet impact. Further, the conditions in an already burning wildfire are far hotter and drier than normal shooting conditions which causes the combustibles to be preheated and makes it easier for them to ignite.
As I stated earlier, you guys take things out of context, trying to tell people that a light weight, small piece of hot metal in regular temperatures with normal humidity can start a fire just as easily as a large chunk of burning wood in hot, dry conditions is either being disingenuous or just plain stupid.
Ignition Override
Member
DMK: Yes, it was only a rusty stand made of steel tubes, with a rectangular shape.
So everybody who disagrees with you & reports having started a fire, etc is either crooked or stupid? Is that your position here?
JohnBiltz
Member
You might want to read the OP. "It's been very dry in the southeast and there are a number of large fires going as a result of fall leaves and dry timber." The shoutheast is experiencing really bad fire conditions right now. I know its November and normally the danger there is in July and August but its bad right now. Someone who lives in an area where it rains a lot might think nothing about tossing a cigarette butt out the window of his moving car and laugh at the idea of it causing a fire. Someone living in the Southwest might complain about tourists starting a lot fires.
red rick
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A friend of mine that I work with bought a large piece of land and invited about 6 of my other coworkers out there to shoot one day . One of my coworkers was shooting tracers in his AR15 and they started a fire in the broom straw . We were able to put it out before it spread .
OP
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DMK
Member
Living in the middle of forest, I won't even buy tracers.
I was just going to write that, you beat me to it.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
That steel core and steel jacket bullets "spark" when they hit some things just means that the steel is hot enough to emit light. When you shoot a lead, copper jacket, or copper bullet and it hits something hard enough to deform, while it may or may not emit light, it gets VERY HOT. If ejected spent brass is hot enough to cause a fire, then the potential is certainly there for lead, copper jacket, and all copper bullets to start fires.
A study by the USFS showed that the primary cause is fragments heated by friction from striking rocks or steel plates. I was surprised that copper would do it proving their point that is is super heated metal not necessarily sparks from steel jackets or cores.
splattergun
Member
Here, read this by the BLM why shooting is prohibited on many BLM areas in Utah during the dry season, and some year-round.
https://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/target_shooting.html
In the 3rd paragraph bold heading Fires and Target Shooting you will find a link to a Federal study titled "A Study of Ignintion by Rifle Bullets" that clearly demonstrates that rifle bullets can indeed start fires.
I have personally (along with hundreds of thousands of other Utah residents) breathed the smoke of wildfires started by people shooting in rocky ground covered in dry grass and sagebrush.
Choose your shooting ground carefully and be prepared to put out any fire you start with your shooting.
https://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/target_shooting.html
In the 3rd paragraph bold heading Fires and Target Shooting you will find a link to a Federal study titled "A Study of Ignintion by Rifle Bullets" that clearly demonstrates that rifle bullets can indeed start fires.
I have personally (along with hundreds of thousands of other Utah residents) breathed the smoke of wildfires started by people shooting in rocky ground covered in dry grass and sagebrush.
Choose your shooting ground carefully and be prepared to put out any fire you start with your shooting.
Black powder has a reputation for setting things on fire, especially at firing ranges because embers are known to set off unburned smokless residue found on the floor and walls. The few wildfires legitimately attributed to recreational shooters I know of were all Idiots shooting tracers from the internet at the height of forrest fire season. If it makes you feel better, spray a hose down the alley and dont worry. Out here in the Yakima/Wanatchee areas we shoot in the middle of extremely dry seasons, around extremely dry vegetation. No issues from that.
OP
OP
DMK
Member
I can see that.
Watch some slow-mo video of rifle rounds hitting AR500 plate. They liquefy.
All that kinetic energy has to go somewhere when the bullet hits an object that won't give. It converts to a lot of heat.
Having lived in Arizona, Utah, and now Montana, I'm well aware of the wildfire hazards. When I lived in Utah I lived at the base of the Wasatch Front in Farmington and South Weber so I saw a few fires there (I also know of one fire that was claimed to be have been started due to target shooting but was actually caused by Tannerite, I was a witness to the start of the fire but my statement was totally ignored by the state fire investigator). In Flagstaff Arizona I've sweated out several wildfires by our home and while I've only lived in Montana for two years I've already had to deal with months long wildfires.
I worked at the Bountiful Gun Range in Bountiful Utah for several years which caused me to research the whole target shooting/ fire hazard issue. In the process of researching I found that report that you reference and am amazed at how obvious it is that most people haven't really read it, they simply assume that it proves their point about bullets and fires but if you read it in it's entirety you'll find that it actually makes a case for bullets not causing fires. On page 24 of that report note that the very last bullet point (interesting that it's the very last comment in the report - almost like they tried to hide the information) they discuss the material used to create the fires - dried peat (one of the most flammable bio-materials known). They say, and I quote;
"Peat moisture contents of 3-5%, air temperatures of 34-49 °C (98-120 °F), and relative humidity of 7 to 16% were necessary to reliably observe ignitions in the experiments. Peat moisture contents above this (perhaps 8%) did not produce ignitions. Field conditions matching the experimental range would imply summer-time temperatures, as well as solar heating of the ground surface and organic matter to produce a drier and warmer microclimate where bullet fragments are deposited."
Notice that they say that unless the combustible had a moisture content of less than 5%, and the air temperature had to be over 98 degrees, and the relative humidity had to be less than 16% ( even Yuma Arizona's average humidity is 22% while in most places it's 60% or more) in order to cause a fire. Additionally, if you read the rest of the report, they say that they couldn't get a fire unless they fired a bullet in to a steel plate 30 yards from the muzzle and at a 30 degree angle. If they changed any of these parameters then they were unsuccessful at creating a fire. They also state specifically that these conditions would only be possible in the summer in a very sunny place - someplace like the desert.
People have jumped on this report as a proof source to limit shooting in rural areas (Utah specifies that target shooting isn't allowed in specific areas during times of high wildfire risk) but it actually proves pretty much the opposite of what they say it proves. The report proves that solid copper bullets MIGHT cause a fire IF you are shooting at steel or stone that is angled at 30 degrees, 30 yards away, in the summer when the humidity is less than 16% and the temperature is over 98 degrees and you've got bio-mass that is as flammable as dried peat under the target. That's pretty much impossible to make happen if you follow common sense safety rules, shoot at a typical target at typical distances in a typical vertical orientation in places with greater than 16% relative humidity.
Dog Soldier
member
Shooting firearms are blamed for Desert fires ever year. We question these charges. Many people drive over dry sage brush causing fires. Camp fires and Summer lightning etc.
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/news/54342335-78/fire-state-shooting-utah.html.csp
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/news/54342335-78/fire-state-shooting-utah.html.csp
Zaydok Allen
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Wow, how a thread with this subject can bring out such large amounts of hot air and foolishness is beyond me.
Here's the simple answer, yes target shooting can pose a fire risk, however small. Steel targets will cause the risk to go up. Hard cast ammo will cause the risk to go up. Having rocks in the vicinity can cause the risk to go up and is the true culprit.
The land management agency I work for had to put out a fire caused by shooting just a few years ago. A bullet hit a rock, it sparked, the fire spread. The composition of the rock has a lot to do with it. In my particular area, there is high flint, chert, quartz, and granite contents. When some chemical bonds break there is an energy release. That energy release can ignite dry fine fuels in a low humidity condition. It happened. I work where it happened. It's documented. There was no tanerite involved.
The same year someone decided to send out our road grating team. They fractured a rock on the side of a road and the subsequent spark started a fire that grew to over 10,000 acres. If the wind had shifted we would have burned over a small town.
When I shoot in the woods in dry conditions I bring two liters of water and a shovel. I clear rocks away from my shooting area to avoid ricochetes and sparks.
The chances are small, but do exist. If I'm "full of it" then I kindly invite anyone who thinks I'm a liar to put me on their ignore list so we can avoid interactions in the future.
Here's the simple answer, yes target shooting can pose a fire risk, however small. Steel targets will cause the risk to go up. Hard cast ammo will cause the risk to go up. Having rocks in the vicinity can cause the risk to go up and is the true culprit.
The land management agency I work for had to put out a fire caused by shooting just a few years ago. A bullet hit a rock, it sparked, the fire spread. The composition of the rock has a lot to do with it. In my particular area, there is high flint, chert, quartz, and granite contents. When some chemical bonds break there is an energy release. That energy release can ignite dry fine fuels in a low humidity condition. It happened. I work where it happened. It's documented. There was no tanerite involved.
The same year someone decided to send out our road grating team. They fractured a rock on the side of a road and the subsequent spark started a fire that grew to over 10,000 acres. If the wind had shifted we would have burned over a small town.
When I shoot in the woods in dry conditions I bring two liters of water and a shovel. I clear rocks away from my shooting area to avoid ricochetes and sparks.
The chances are small, but do exist. If I'm "full of it" then I kindly invite anyone who thinks I'm a liar to put me on their ignore list so we can avoid interactions in the future.
gsbuickman
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Yep, just ask that assclown ex cop that was out shooting tracer rds up off of 8th street above Boise several years back and started that huge wildfire and was subsequently fired from the Department for being a jackass and causing all that damage 
...
...
Cannibul
Member
As an aside sparks from railroad rolling stock cause numerous fires.
Almost every summer in the Columbia river gorge there's a fire on once side or the other caused by rolling stock. Some of start lines on those fires are more than a mile long. I've seen at night now many sparks the rolling stock can generate. That's merely steel rolling on steel.
Almost every summer in the Columbia river gorge there's a fire on once side or the other caused by rolling stock. Some of start lines on those fires are more than a mile long. I've seen at night now many sparks the rolling stock can generate. That's merely steel rolling on steel.
Zaydok Allen
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Indeed! Railway sparks are what caused the great Peshtigo fire in WI many years ago.
Simple friction from a rock can cause cause copper fragments to become hot enough to cause fires so you aren't all together safe thinking lead or copper won't start a fire. Keep a shovel with you at the range so you don't have to try and stamp out a small start.
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