Is there such a thing as premeditated Self-Defense

[Cosmoline]

If he did succeed in setting up a self-defense shooting, he would probably not get a free walk. There would be some pointed questions as to his reasons for choice of late night activities.

Why? What's the basis for your conclusion? If he was not breaking any law or starting any fights, what "pointed questions" do you think would defeat his justification?

Walking in a bad part of town secretly hoping you get attacked is not illegal. Nor would it make an otherwise justified shooting unjustified. It is, however, incredibly stupid since you stand a good chance of getting killed in the process.

 

[tntwatt]

Just my opinion, but the difference of legal vs. criminal needs to be made. Premeditation is a term to describe illegal killing which is planned for a specific crime on a person or group of people. Self defense is legal because you do not plan for a specific loss of life, you are just planning for your general safety.

 

[Evil Monkey]

There is no such thing as "premeditated self defense", even if it was law.

Such an idea cannot be comprehended, simply because it is illogical.

We can say that premeditated murder exists because it is an "action". However, self defense is a "reaction", and thus, could not be premeditated.

 

[CWL]

If you step outside armed, that is "Preparedness"

If you step outside with a firearm fulling planning to shoot somebody that day -that is "Premeditation".

There is a huge difference.


btw, the only person to ever get away with this was President Ronald Reagan. He committed a "Pre-emptive retaliatory strike" against Libya and nobody did anything about it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Self defense is legal because you do not plan for a specific loss of life, you are just planning for your general safety.

No, that's not correct at all. Who told you that? The self defense provisions apply to justify killing when you were faced with imminent and unlawful deadly force. There is no requirement that you only had "general plans" to defend yourself. You may in fact have been under a specific threat from a specific person, or you may have feared a specific neighborhood. It's not illegal to plan to do something legal--ie defend yourself lawfully.

Go read your state's code on self defense.

If you step outside with a firearm fulling planning to shoot somebody that day -that is "Premeditation".

Assuming you plan on murdering them and not simply defend yourself against their imminent, unlawful and deadly force that's correct. But leaving your house armed and suspecting that a particular hit man is going to make a try on our life does not render your lawful defense unlawful unless you try to kill him before he presents an imminent threat.

 

[Evil Monkey]

If you step outside with a firearm fulling planning to shoot somebody that day -that is "Premeditation".

It's premeditated murder if your ACTION is unwarranted.

Because if you go out planning to shoot somebody who threatens your life, and then a person pulls out a knife and tries to stab you, do you NOT have the right to REACT in self defense in that instance?

 

[jakemccoy]

no

-Jake

 

[CWL]

You guys are talking about killing someone.

I'm not even talking about getting to that point. I'm talking about purposefully planning to go out and shoot somebody (whether you know the person(s) or not), whatever the situation.

A reasonable person, if expecting gunplay, would remove themselves from the area of expected violence, so it's not legal self-defense. I believe that is how a DA & court would view the situation. I believe that there is case law where a person has been prosecuted for doing exactly that.

 

[Honu]

Cosmoline first aloha and since you have a ton of posts here and I am new and dont know you dont want to start stepping on people and I have no clue what you do ?


but I am curious about this you said and where this thought of yours came from ?
I have talked with a prosecutor about this exact thing

Walking in a bad part of town secretly hoping you get attacked is not illegal. Nor would it make an otherwise justified shooting unjustified. It is, however, incredibly stupid since you stand a good chance of getting killed in the process.

the first part is not illegal the second part ? well that might be what gets you in trouble since justified has to be that and if you went in hoping you get attacked does not make it justified it just makes it you got what you want a gun fight !
according to a state prosecutor I know they thought they could really flip against the shooter and sink him as most people dont like vigilante types
the solid gun pro people hate these kind of gun shooters looking for a fight giving guns a bad name ! the left hates this kind of person a gun toting murderer
and kinda leaves the shooter out there on their own with very little defense why they did it

it might make what some might call a justified shooting backfire o since if you were not there it would not have happened

as they said if you get the wrong person against you and they can show how you went into that bad part of town armed looking for a fight it wont come out in your favor most likely

just some thought directly from a prosecutors thoughts of this exact thing we were talking about

again if you have to go into that part of town or get through it etc.. that dif

but even if there was a way around that part of a bad area and you chose not to go that route it might be tougher

again this is worst case scenario against the good guy but as we know from some cases sadly good things go bad and nice guys have gone to jail

 

[tntwatt]

I love this, if you start at the beginning of this thread and read them all, you can see how lawyers make their money. Here on THR people are self denfense minded and have at least thought about this issue. Can you imagine how confused the average non-THR type would get when a lawyer got ahold of this line of thought?

 

[Nightwing]

I believe there is, and I believe there is nothing wrong with it. You can premeditate it, but if you don't have to use it then there's no harm. If you do, you were better prepared. There is no crim in thinking ANYTHING!
I remember there was a night ihad to go do music at a church service. I knew there was a guy at a business next door that told someone he was going to kick my "butt" next time he saw me, because the church's music was too loud and offensive (this guy was always in his yard hassling people) . So many times I would go there and be a little edgy on the way in.
That night I walked in not thinking much, and ol Gary appeared.
"Hey. I've had enough of you and i'm gonna kick your A**"
me: "Gary... I've known your intentions for some time now and I'm more than prepared to take you on, and probably level you. In your anger you've prepared to beat me down in the same sloppy manner you live your life.... In my preparedness I've assessed that you are no physical threat to me and, although I absolutely do not want to fight with ANYONE... I will if your poor choices put me in the middle of a situation. At that point, I pray that you have good dental insurance".
Maybe not word for word but it was DARN close to that. Very inspired moment.
Gary starts hootin' and hollerin' and spewing names and complaining about stuff that had nothing to do with anyone I knew.
He then took a swing and hit me dead in the cheek. Didn't hurt, but my eyes went black for a second. It was a hood punch!
I managed to get a gut shot in, and get behind him enough to get his neck in a hold and use all my weight to put him on the ground with my big old 270lb kneecap on his ribs (on the back of his body).
"Gary.... you made a stupid move just now."
Gary: "Rant rant F YOU!!!! I'm gonna kill you when I get up"
Me: "Larry... I know you're full of it, and I don't know what you're trying to prove, but I'm not buying it. I'm going to let you off the ground now, and if you come at me again, you're gonna be on the ground twice as hard next time."
Dead silence....... Gary: "OK"
I let him up.... and he starts to cry!!!! Tells me he's just so mad at so many things, and he's sorry.
It was unbelievable. I could have destroyed Gary, but he was always a little drunk and he was a mess. I actually got to know the guy a little after that and he came to church a few times.
Point is.... I had premeditated how to handle Gary. It made me more responsible. Everything is better with a plan. Without one, it's chaos, and you can make decisions you will regret... even if they were justified.

 

[El Tejon]

Magnum, premeditation is "deliberating upon a contemplated act" (see Black's Law Dictionary). Premeditation is of itself is not a crime. It's one of those phrases that people throw around but do not fully understand, like conspiracy.

I premeditate every time I train for self-defense. Darn right I premeditate self-defense, hopefully all the time.

What has everyone wrapped around the axle is that that modern murder statutes used "premeditation" for the English common law phrase of "malice aforethought". There is nothing wrong with self-defense, whether it is premeditated or not.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You gotta be kidding, right?

Certainly self-defense is pre-meditated, if it involves carrying a weapon. What does "pre-meditated" mean? It means you thought about it beforehand. I for damn sure think about self-defense, every day when I put a pistol in a holster on my hip, and every time I go to the range to practice.

So what?

Self-defense is not illegal. That's the issue. "Pre-meditated" murder is a bad thing because murder is illegal, and plotting it ahead of time is deemed to be worse than reacting in a moment of impetuousness and committing murder on the spur of the moment. All it does is take an illegal act and ratchet it up to a higher level of being evil.

In those movies, Charles Bronson wasn't engaging in "pre-meditated self-defense," he was engaging in hunting. He was a vigilante. Being prepared to defend yourself while hoping it never becomes necessary is a very different circumstance from going out and inviting attacks, and HOPING you'll be attacked. Also, Bronson's goal wasn't to defend himself, his goal was to kill assailants. That's a fine distinction, but it's an important distinction.

 

[conw]

"Pre-meditation" is tricky since it involves some sort of planning ahead, but there is no set rule as to how much.

If a crazy gunman started shooting up your school/office/post-office etc. and you went to your car for a weapon and returned and killed him. That would come pretty close to pre-meditated self defense.

"self" is an issue, but in this case you would be in danger just as much as the other victims so I think it would count.

Sebastian, I get where you're drawing the line, although I disagree that there is a greater degree of premeditation in that defensive (though not self-defense) killing than in a regular self-defense killing.

If another person is demonstrably at risk, and they could legally defend themselves with lethal force at that moment in time, it is legal to do so for them - at least in North Carolina. Therefore, the "situation" occurred when said psycho started killing people; you didn't have prior knowledge of him doing that, and you are already in the midst of it when you decide to go to the car and get the gun.

The thing is, your choice to legally kill him in defense of others does not imply premeditation with regard to his actions' effects on yours. You are still reacting directly to his actions.

A greater degree of premeditation, in this case, would be more like if he told you he was going to do it days before and instead of alerting authorities then you started packing in response to said threat.

I disagree with 357 that premeditation "only exists" in legalese when applies to crimes. Premeditation means premeditation, and it has one definition. It may be an exacerbating circumstance in a case in court, but it has the same definition as always. I know I'm splitting hairs, but it's less confusing when it's put that way. It may only interest courts when it is applied to illegal actions, but it is still the exact same concept.

Can self-defense be pre-meditated? Yes.
If it is truly "self-defense" does one need to worry if it was technically premeditated? No.
Do people pre-meditate self-defense to the degree that it becomes murder? Yes.
Is it still self-defense? No.

 

[Kentak]

Cosmoline said

Why? What's the basis for your conclusion? If he was not breaking any law or starting any fights, what "pointed questions" do you think would defeat his justification?

Walking in a bad part of town secretly hoping you get attacked is not illegal. Nor would it make an otherwise justified shooting unjustified. It is, however, incredibly stupid since you stand a good chance of getting killed in the process.

The basis for my conclusion is Ohio law and the intent of CCW law and use of deadly force law.

It's one thing to have to walk through a dangerous location on the way from the bus stop to your home, and to be armed for your own protection, and quite another to purposely put yourself in a situation you know may provoke aggression with the thought of using that situation to use self-defense as an excuse to shoot someone. If you don't see that distinction, frankly, you are a worse danger to RKBA than an outright anti-gunner because that attitude justifies their suspicions about RKBA.

The situation I set up is clearly a "Death Wish" vigilante situation. Leave the sting operations to the cops, and plan for your own legitimate defense needs. But, to think you can skate after intentionally inserting yourself in a hostile environment is ignorant.

Here's a link to Ohio AG's guidebook for CCW holders. After reading the relevant sections about self defense and deadly force you still believe Ohio law would not lead to "pointed questions," well, fine. BTW, I seriously doubt Ohio law on this matter is terribly different from that in many other states.

http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/pubs/cc_booklet20040319-72.pdf

K