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Is this blatantly illegal or within the boundaries? (Cali magazine laws)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by BK, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. BK

    BK Member

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    I can see how this is slightly within the boundary of California law but it seems a little blatant and obvious. The item is only defined differently whether it crosses into California or not. If it is mailed into CA, it's a repair kit. If not, it's a high capacity magazine.
    I knew that California law had no regulation over magazine parts or a bona fide kit to repair an existing magazine, but this takes it much further than I thought was possible.

    Repair kit: http://www.44mag.com/product/high_capacity_magazine_repair_kits/
    Banned mag: http://www.44mag.com/product/magpul_pmag_m3_gen_3/pmag_gen_m3
     
  2. reggie_love

    reggie_love Member

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  3. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Not only is it not blatantly illegal, it conforms exactly to the law as it is written...which is the only form it needs to conform with.

    Crossing the state line has nothing to do with it. It has to do with it's state of assembly or disassembly. Your misunderstanding might come from the coined term "rebuild kit"...it is really a collection of disassembled magazine parts.

    Large capacity (larger than 10 rounds) magazines are not illegal to own within the state...only their import, transfer and manufacture (in it's original designed capacity) is illegal.

    The kits are not only used to repair worn magazines already in the state, they are also used to manufacture limited capacity magazines to fit guns for which there are no reduced capacity magazines available as OEM...they are simply assembled blocked to the correct depth. They can also be owned for use when out of the state
     
  4. Fishslayer

    Fishslayer Member

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    Why is selling a box of parts to an area where selling a box of parts is legal "far beyond" anything?:confused:

    It's a rebuild kit for legally owned preban magazines.
     
  5. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    After some consideration, I'm not even seeing this as a gray area.

    If this bothers you, you defiantly shouldn't look into Bullet Buttons, or the Single Shot and Single Action Exemptions
     
  6. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    I live in CA and for the past few years there has been a lot of this being done. Personally, it makes me uneasy and I've avoided it like the plague. But then again, I'm cautious by nature. Many seem to be on with it and as I can best tell is that DAs aren't going after folks.
     
  7. BK

    BK Member

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    Thanks for being honest Sheepdog. I knew this wasn't as trivial as some would make it.
    No, it is a magazine that is restricted in your state. Look again at the pictures in the auction and read the first sentence of the item's description.
    Why use quotation marks? I never used those words so why did you?
    My first statement here was that I acknowledge how this auction's presentation was within the law. Way to make our site the pride of mannerly conduct with a backhanded comment like that, mod. Please provide the non gunowning public with a better example of our community in the future.
     
  8. K1500

    K1500 Member

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    No...when the seller sends them as rebuild kits he or she opens the package and takes the mag apart. As per the letter of the law, it is NOT a magazine that is restricted in your state. If you don't like the law, write your reps and have them change it to ban rebuild kits. FWIW, there is no such thing as "blatantly illegal". Either it is illegal or it is legal, so what's with the blatant part? Assembling the rebuild kit into a functioning 30 round magazine while in the state of CA is illegal. As was mentioned, the kit is legal, and there are many legitimate reasons someone would want one.
     
  9. BK

    BK Member

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    You are assuming more than can be considered responsible. I am not from California nor do I live there. These magazines are perfectly legal in this state where I sell them.
    Blatant means openly. I was not asking if his actions were openly done or secrectly done because it is obviously open for everyone to see. My question was about the legality of the blatant actions and my first inclination was that they were legal. This English lesson concludes here.
     
  10. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    There was nothing backhanded about it

    It was a blatant comment about your attempting to impose your sense of right and wrong on people who have chosen to follow the law as it is written. You're apparent ethical judgement of the spirit or underlying meaning of the current law, does not change the morality of the actions of those who might benefit from following it as it exist.

    The standard here is that we do not advocate actions in contravention of the current laws. The possession, purchase and importation of rebuild kits is extremely clear in the law...having been presented to the CA DOJ for their opinion as to it's legality

    If you disassembled them before shipping, they would be perfectly legal to sell them in CA also. If you choose to not sell them to to CA it is a business model that you have chosen, I don't see what is to be gained by trying to demonize others who choose a different model
     
  11. Librarian

    Librarian Member

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    The letter from the CA-DOJ is from 2005, and is available here

    On point, the question asked was
    "Q3: Can you import all the parts of a single hi-cap magazine at once, provided they are unassembled?
    A3: Yes."

    The letter was signed by Alison Merrilees, then Deputy Attorney General of California, for Bill Lockyer, Attorney General; that is, it is an official legal opinion of the Attorney General of California.

    No one need conform his or her business model to the whims of California; avoiding the place can make a great deal of sense. But it does sometimes take some affirmative action to discover what California law actually says, to make an informed decision.
     
  12. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    :scrutiny:
     
  13. TenDriver

    TenDriver Member

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    Curious about something. I live in Alabama. If I have a cousin in California and send him a 30 rd mag, have I broken anything other than a CA law? (Not gonna happen. Just curious).

    Or is this another way the CA law lacks teeth?
     
  14. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    If you disassemble the mag befopre you ship it... you have done nothing wrong in CA eyes.

    That is a rebuild kit.

    If your cousin assembles the pieces into a 11+ mag, he's broken CA law; not you.
     
  15. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    If it was in parts, then you would not violate any Federal or state laws.

    If it was a complete magazine, then you would violate CA state laws.
    If CA DOJ finds out about it, they can prosecute you for importing a large capacity magazine to CA after 01-01-2000 (which is a felony).
    In the past, CA DOJ has gone after people/vendors for doing this via civil (lawsuits) & criminal (warrants) means.
     
  16. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I totally don't have a dog in this fight, but how would CA prosecute someone from outside CA who broke a law specific to CA and did so without physically entering the state? Especially considering the act in question is legal in the person's state of residence. Wouldn't the person's state of residence have to assist in the prosecution or extradition?
     
  17. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    Despicable.

    We have lawful citizens engaging in activities which are lawful without any doubt [ See letter from CA-DOJ ], and yet we still have 'Second Amendment Supporters' willing to verbally stab them in the back.
     
  18. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    The other states would need to provide assistance for any criminal charges.
    The other states do not provide assistance for any civil suits.
     
  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I'm willing to be corrected on this...as English is my second language...but would the recipient be the importer?
     
  20. Librarian

    Librarian Member

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    If he solicited it, probably. If it just showed up on his doorstep, more likely not.

    It is an incredibly stupid, and poorly written law.

    Some of the banned activities are pretty clearly 'commercial', IMO
    (PC 32310) but the law doesn't make the distinction, so the restrictions also apply to private individuals.

    Note that to 'buy', 'own', 'possess' and 'use' are not there.
     
  21. K1500

    K1500 Member

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    Blatantly: Adverb
    1. In an unsubtle and unashamed manner.
    2. Used to emphasize the speaker's opinion that something disapproved of is clearly the case: "he found her remarks blatantly racist".

    It seems pretty clear to me that you mean the second when you used the word blatantly. This is supported by the fact that you said this:
    so you were not using the word blatantly to mean openly.

    No, I think it doesn't.
     
  22. BK

    BK Member

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    Wow. Thank you Librarian! Your post is exactly the reason I asked in the first place. It's one thing to have a stranger on the Internet simply claim that something is within the law, even if they are in the staff of the forum, but posts like 11 and 20 are why despite the snark, this site is still the best place for info.
    This was why I asked. Not being familiar with CA law, dealers like me just have to shy away. I was under the impression that your magazine law might have been similar to the way "once a rifle always a rifle" used to be the rule. As my OP states, I was not certain that dissasembling a factory completed magazine and shipping the lot would have met the law. The Merrilees letter settles it.
    Where did I do that?
     
  23. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    If you weren't familiar with the law, why argue about it when offered the correct information?

    If you wanted a legal citation, wouldn't it have been easier to ask for that in the OP...rather than take a contentious position inferring that it was pushing the envelope of legality?
     
  24. BK

    BK Member

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    I thought that asking a question in this legal forum would produce a citation and fortunately it did. Initially I never would have imagined that a letter existed from the attorney general's office about this specific action. It was surprising to see that.

    You've seen people here ask whether or not it's legal for a felon to carry an 1858 Navy revolver because it appears to slip just between the boundaries of the law, and I initially expected this particular issue of disassembling a factory completed magazine and then calling it something else to be a similarly tenuous assertion. We can see that is not the case though.
     
  25. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Just read the AG memo: it's not as clear cut good to go as you're suggesting in CA. The AG says that while some activities proposed are legal, he states that much of the proposed activites are dangerously close to, and even, illegal; subjecting the person to prosecution. Notwithstanding A1, A2, and A3, read A6 and A9 of the memo...

    Exactly how many "rebuild" kits do you think you can mail or possess without raising some eyes? An argument can be made for possessing a few, but 50? 100? At some point you're clearly assisting, conspiring, or participating in criminal behavior. The words manufacturing, importing, and jail are pretty scary...

    The words conspiracy, aiding and abetting, interstate federal offense, mail crimes, state felonies all come to mind.

    If Jon lives in state A and commit a crime in state B, BOTH states can have jurisdiction and issue arrest warrants. Further, it's also interstate crime, so the Feds are involved, particularly if you use the mails.

    For example, say Jon sends a mail bomb from state A to state B using the post office. Jon's bomb kills a person in state B. State A, state B, and the Feds all have jurisdiction and can prosecute Jon. State B may not be able to unless Jon's extradicted... but once convicted an incarcerated in state A or by the Feds, and extradiction is a high probability.

    Another example, say Tim shoots a rifle across state borders and commit a murder, from A to B. Again, states A, B, and the Feds have jurisdiction.

    In the case of mailing illicit materials into a state, it's easy to track you down since your return address is on the mail, and there may also be electronic communications too.

    Why do you think that most online retailers don't ship certain items into places like CA, MD, NY, IL, NJ, HI, etc.?

    Doing this, sending illicit parts into CA, is taking MASSIVE legal risks for presumably very little gain. I would never even contemplate doing this... again, *maybe* you are right. But the pricetag of getting in front of a judge or jury to tell them why you are right is HUGE. Probably minimum of $20,000, and the risk of being wrong and incarcerated and losing your 2A rights. Absolutely stupid thing to do.

    I guess I'm just cautious when it comes to safeguarding my liberties, freedom, and wealth.

    The term "constructive sale" or "constructive possession" comes to mind.

    Sure, you *might* be okay... however the limitless coffers of the state or federal government, and an overzealous prosecutor, could cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to prove your point, not to mention the serious consequences IF you are wrong. Ever been through a trial? It isn't fun. Months or years living with immesurable stress, and spending a small fortune on your defense; and the BEST case scenario is you walk out in no better place than before you started - a free man.

    Maybe these are misdemeanors, maybe felonies. I haven't looked that deeply into it. But IF you are wrong, your new nickname is "Inmate 45687" and you might get to tell everyone why you are a felon and convict. Fun stuff.

    Again, no thanks. Sending or possessing parts of an illegal object in states where they are prohibited is NOT a risk I personally would be willing to accept.

    "How would I get caught?" is a common question. Well, the person in CA gets pinched for something, and a warrant for his home turns up all these magazine kits and boxes from where they were sent, or he cuts a deal and dimes out the seller...

    I advise against...
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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