Is this "concealed" carry?

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Owen Sparks

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Suppose you live in a rough neighborhood, work in a bad part of town or for whatever reason need to be armed when you walk to or from your car. The fastest possible "draw" is to conceal your pistol in a paper bag. If a potential bad guy approaches you can already have it pointed at him before he realizes what is going on and if you have to you can shoot through the bag. To the casual observer it just looks like you have a bag of popcorn or something in your hand and they would not be alarmed if you reached into the bag until...

BAM!

Is there any law that says that a concealed weapon has to be in a holster?
 
I don't think that would be illegal, the name of the game is concealed. I don't think I'd do that unless it was a major threat and imminent. I carry my LCP in my front pocket so I could walk along with my hand in my pocket gripping it ready to draw it out of it's Nemesis holster and my pocket. I sure wouldn't point a weapon at anyone or thing unless I intended to fire it.
 
I think a prosecutor would have a red-letter day with this one, here's why.

In a "normal" confrontation there's usually the element of escalation. In this scenario, were it allowed to proceed "normally", the victim might have time to retract a jacket making the hip-holstered weapon visible, drawing the weapon, assuming low draw position, and finally high draw position. Any or all of these might be sufficient to cause the miscreant to back down, even run off like the cockroach he is.

I think the best the shooter could hope for is being charged with vigilantism, at the worst, execution.

It would however, make a brilliant movie script for the next "Death Wish" sequel.
 
Paper bag would work in my state. Depending on where I am and what I'm doing, I might have my gun in a coat pocket, shorts pocket, wrapped in a towel (not often), in a canvas mechanic's bag, in a leather planner, or in a holster. Sometimes when I'm walking the dog late a night, I just hold it in my hand. But only holster carry is appropriate if carrying it around for a while. I wouldn't use a paper bag all day.
 
In my state of Nevada it would be considered concealed:

NRS 202.3653 Definitions. As used in NRS 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, unless the context otherwise requires:

1. “Concealed firearm” means a loaded or unloaded pistol, revolver or other firearm which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.

As for "potential bad guy approaches you can already have it pointed at him before he realizes what is going on", that would violate NRS 202.290, but that is only a misdemeanor.

EDIT: I also forgot NRS 202.320: 1. Unless a greater penalty is provided in NRS 202.287, a person having, carrying or procuring from another person any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword cane, pistol, gun or other deadly weapon, who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense, or who in any manner unlawfully uses that weapon in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

I'm sure a creative DA out here would also enjoy the challenge of figuring out how many other charges he could come up with. But this only applies to Nevada, your state may vary.
 
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In Florida, if it is "concealed from the ordinary sight of another person", it is within the parameter of the law regarding "concealed." Holsters are not mentioned, either in any statute prohibiting the concealed carry of a firearm by a non-licensee, or in the statue permitting it by a licensee.
 
Paper bags can rip with the gun falling out. Bad juju. Also, lame concealment idea, there are far better ways to arm yourself for personal protection.

Dan
 
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,
Click to expand...

Go to jail in Virginia (and do not pass go).

And a careful reading of almost every state that has laws against concealment would conclude it is concealed.

Not much different than putting it in your coat pocket.
 
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Why not get a license to carry legally instead of trying (and failing) to skirt the law?
 
First off all the paper bag is just a short term way to have fast access to a pistol in a potentially dangerous situation like walking to your car late at night in a rough part of town. It can buy you precious seconds against an advasary who can probably cover ten yards faster than you can draw from concealment IF he moves first. Secondly, you don't hold it by the bag alone. Your left hand acts as the holster, the bag is only concealment.
You can not "skirt" the law unless your state requires a pistol to be carried in a perticular way. It is either concealed or not besides, if Heaven forbid you did have to shoot using this method, be totaly truthful. Tell the police that you drew your weapon and shot because you were in fear for your life and leave it at that.
 
Here in Arizona, it would be concealed. Luckily, we don't care. We also have had an open carry law longer than the concealed carry. So either the bad guy will figure he/she has you outgunned...or choose a less prickly target. I generally carry concealed to reduce anyone else's tension around me. But nothing quite says "go away" like some guy from Tombstone walking around with a single action army .45 strapped to his leg.
 
I can't think of a reason you would want to do that, but yes, that would be concealed carry by most any definition.
 
Bad idea for the following reasons IMO:

1. I need my hands to do stuff like open car doors, grab keys, open building doors and picking my nose. That means I'll likely hold the bag, not the gun....or even worse, stick it under my arm.

2. I can draw from concealment far faster than I can reach into a bag and draw. The only way I could be faster with the bag is if I keep my hand in the bag, grip established and the bag taped around my arm. That would look a little suspicious and I would really hate to explain myself to any LEO I approach as it would make for a tense moment.

3. Bags rip. Bags get taken from you. Bags get dropped. The only way to fix this is to keep a firing grip on the gun...see point #2.

4. You keep a firing grip established around the bag and the gun. Now you can't manipulate external safeties with certainty. If you carry something with no safety with a paper bag wadded around it (and possibly in material caught in the trigger guard), you've got a carry method that is just begging for another "_____'s aren't safe" post after you get a negligent discharge.

5. If I'm that worried about the environment I'm in, I'll carry OWB and wear a cover garment guaranteeing the fastest draw possible.
 
Secondly, you don't hold it by the bag alone. Your left hand acts as the holster, the bag is only concealment.
Click to expand...

Try both methods on a shot timer. Unless that bag is open so you don't have to look at it or fiddle with the opening to reach inside...I can't understand why it would be faster. Try some practice on a shot timer and I bet you'll find the holster draw faster. I know to move my cover garment and where my holster is instinctively...I'll need to look down at the bag (not good) to see if it is open before I reach.
 
con·ceal

tr.v. con·cealed, con·ceal·ing, con·ceals

To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide.



It would be considered a concealed weapon any way you look at it.
 
I don't want to contribute to the argument that this would be a good practice. But a firearm in a container not attached to the body I doubt would be "concealed carry." In the ridiculous state of California one of the only remaining work arounds to our carry bans and restrictive CCW system is the Locked Unloaded Carry. Guys will keep a pistol in a locked pouch with a loaded magazine included in the pouch. some of these containers look like day timer calendar like folders. Anyway a container is a container and is not the same as a concealed holstering or pocket carry in your clothing. So as a matter of simply noting the details I beg to differ that carrying a pistol in a bag is the same as concealed carry. But as always your local and state laws prevail...
 
But a firearm in a container not attached to the body I doubt would be "concealed carry."
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And I would bet you are wrong and going to visit the Greybar Hotel.

A women's purse or man's briefcase it not "attached to the body" and it considered concealed.
 
stay classy brickeyee.....

clearly there is a conundrum when it comes to carrying a pistol.....it is not as black and white as you seem to want to make it, and clearly in my post I stated that local law trumps all opinions. Just for the sake of debate how should one carry a pistol to another location if they do not have a permitted concealed carry? By the letter of the law, how do I transport a pistol from my vehicle in a public place to another legal location without brandishing or without concealing. The answer is to put it in some form of container. So now define the container.... discuss.....
 
Depends on your state law, of course, but generally the gun should be unloaded and in a closed, possibly locked, container.

A loaded gun in an open paper bag (or in your hand, inside a paper bag) is almost certainly concealed carry just about anywhere.
 
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how do I transport a pistol from my vehicle in a public place to another legal location without brandishing or without concealing. The answer is to put it in some form of container. So now define the container...
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And it would need to be UNloaded and not with immediate access by you - like in a travel case or similar
 
Just for the sake of debate how should one carry a pistol to another location if they do not have a permitted concealed carry?
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According to the state's laws you are in.

Unloaded and in a container, not accessible from within the vehicle by ANY occupant of the vehicle works most of the time.

A few states have further restrictions on where you are allowed to transport the gun.
To a gunsmith, to a range, dealer to your house, etc.

At least one judge in Virginia allowed a concealed charge to stick for a 'belt buckle' small gun.

It was not readily apparent the gun was real, so it was concealed.

Trying to find ways around concealed laws is a good way to visit the Graybar Hotel, and possibly have your gun rights restricted.

The first offense in Virginia is a misdemeanor, subsequent offenses are a felony.
 
gatesbox said:
stay classy brickeyee.....

clearly there is a conundrum when it comes to carrying a pistol.....it is not as black and white as you seem to want to make it, and clearly in my post I stated that local law trumps all opinions. Just for the sake of debate how should one carry a pistol to another location if they do not have a permitted concealed carry? By the letter of the law, how do I transport a pistol from my vehicle in a public place to another legal location without brandishing or without concealing. The answer is to put it in some form of container. So now define the container.... discuss.....
Click to expand...

Concealed carry laws vary by state. Since you mention California (my state of residence) here is what the California Penal Code (section 12025, 12026) says:

Summarizing and paraphrasing here so don't take this as a legal definition (From the California Rifle and Pistol Association Summary of California Gun Laws and Basic Safety Rules):

With certain exceptions, a concealed handgun can legally be transported within a motor vehicle without a permit only by carrying it: 1) unloaded; and 2) locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a separate locked container other than the utility or glove compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be carried in a locked container separate from the utility or glove compartment.

A handgun may be legally carried "directly to and from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container."

Section 12026.1 defines a locked container as "a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device."

Even though I have a CCW, I still have to follow these laws for handguns I do not have listed on my license (four are listed, the rest are not).

BTW, there are a NUMBER of exceptions to the concealed transport law listed in 12026 (far too numerous to mention here).

The CRPA has this booklet available to anyone for a small fee or free to members. I am a life member of CRPA and NRA.

Dan
 
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