Is this for real?

[bushmaster1313]

I am not going to get this.

But I want to know if the Forum thinks they are right that this does not require any special Federal NFA stamps, etc.

Thank you



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473720088

These are the definitions in New Jersey of a handgun, shotgun and sawed off shotgun:

k. "Handgun" means any pistol, revolver or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand.

n. "Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition.

o. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

I will presume that this is a factory Mossberg "Cruiser" that came with a pistol grip only and no stock. The barrel was swapped out for a 14" one and the 'chicken neck' grip is probably the one from Shockwave Technologies. The configuration is legal at the federal level since it is neither a short-barreled shotgun, nor an "Any Other Weapon". It falls into an interesting 'crack' in the law being neither fish nor fowl. Marty explains it well on his website (where you can also get the grip). http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

 

[Theohazard]

It's legal under federal law. Under federal law, pistol-grip shotguns aren't sold as shotguns because they don't have a stock. When filling out the 4473, the dealer should mark "Other" for #18, and then instead of writing "shotgun" in #29 they should write "firearm with a pistol grip". And legally, a "firearm with a pistol grip" isn't a Title 2 firearm as long as the overall length is over 26".

Since a pistol grip shotgun isn't sold as a shotgun, you can have a barrel shorter than 18" as long as the overall length is more than 26". But if a shotgun originally had a stock and was sold as a shotgun, then the barrel can't go below 18" without registering it as a Title 2 firearm under the NFA.

Your reference to New Jersey law has no relevance here considering your question is about federal law under the NFA.

 

[Ryanxia]

A little late to the party

http://www.blackacestactical.com/#!product/prd3/3250932101/black-aces-tactical-dt

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

The movies are influencing firearms manufacturers. I say good luck to anyone who wants to try shooting one of those. I shot a standard pistol grip 12 ga. shotgun and became disenchanted with it rather quickly. Looks to me like a Mad Max gun redesigned.

 

[ironworkerwill]

The movies are influencing firearms manufacturers.

Absolutely, I saw a KSG at the LGS 2 weekends ago. I saw the movie John Wick the next day where he used the KSG in a scene. It's hard to miss with the ''look'' of 3 barrels.

My uncle had a Winchester Defender back in the 90's that had a factory pistol grip. It was NOT fun to shoot. He brought plenty of ammo.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

A little late to the party

http://www.blackacestactical.com/#!product/prd3/3250932101/black-aces-tactical-dt

Not sure who is late.

Shockwave 2011: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Mike

 

[Ryanxia]

Not sure who is late.

Shockwave 2011: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Mike

Worded it wrong. What I meant to say is that there have been more models since that Mossberg with the raptor grip came out. Now there is a whole line of sub 18" barrel non-NFA shotguns. So the OP was a little late to the party

 

[USAF_Vet]

Legal at the Federal level, yes.

However, in New Jersey, it may be a whole 'nother animal.

 

[Elkins45]

"I'll take Things I Don't Want for $1000, Alex."

 

[LemmyCaution]

For what is something like that intended? Unexpectedly gut-shooting your daughter's boyfriend when he arrives at the door to take her to the prom? I'm having a hard time imagining a legitimate self-defense situation for which this is the ideal weapon.

 

[cluttonfred]

To make matters more complicated, while this may be legal under U.S. Federal law it might well be illegal under various state laws. Go figure.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

I see a few comments about why would you want one or what good is it. This is the same mindset that has placed us in the situation we have today. Whether or not you would own it or not isn't the question .The question is, if it's legal why fault someone for owning one. Shot-gunners not defending rifle shooters or handgun shooters,conventional gun owners blasting black rifle owners and so on. We need to stand together and not throw others under the bus just because you don't see the need for a legal firearm that you personally don't care for.

 

[Ryanxia]

I see a few comments about why would you want one or what good is it. This is the same mindset that has placed us in the situation we have today. Whether or not you would own it or not isn't the question .The question is, if it's legal why fault someone for owning one. Shot-gunners not defending rifle shooters or handgun shooters,conventional gun owners blasting black rifle owners and so on. We need to stand together and not throw others under the bus just because you don't see the need for a legal firearm that you personally don't care for.

Well said. I do think we've come a long way ever since post Sandy Hook when people who kept saying 'no one is coming to take your guns' saw that they actually were trying to do just that.

And there are plenty of uses for firearms other than self defense.

 

[Darkbob]

For some reason, I'm thinking that you can put a Vertical Fore Grip on a "Firearm" (the classification of the 12ga under discussion) and it still remains a "Firearm". That is, as long as its not carried concealed, which would change its classification to AOW.

Can anyone tell me if that's an accurate statement?

A vfg may make it a little easier to handle the recoil. Although, if I had such a small 12ga I'd probably want to shoot reduced recoil loads anyway.

 

[Sam1911]

For what is something like that intended? Unexpectedly gut-shooting your daughter's boyfriend when he arrives at the door to take her to the prom? I'm having a hard time imagining a legitimate self-defense situation for which this is the ideal weapon.

Rather a shocking thing to read here, posted by a long-term member no less. You'd look at a gun -- any gun -- and come right out and theorize publicly that it's good for nothing but committing a horrible, tragic, negligent homicide?

I'm terribly disappointed. Hopefully that's the sort of thing you'd share here "among friends*" and would be more circumspect if speaking to people out in the real world where your unguarded words would do much harm.





(* - And remember, what you say here can be read by anyone, all around the world.)

 

[hso]

if it's legal why fault someone for owning one.

Saying something is stupid isn't the same as saying no one should have one.

Unexpectedly gut-shooting...

I hope that's just a tad too much hyperbole for dramatic effect.

People want silly stuff for all sorts of reasons that don't have to be malicious. I built bigger and bigger sparkler flares when I was younger just because I found it "cool" to get the flash and light, but someone with malicious intent could use one as a timed incendiary device. If you own a subgun that you spent years saving up for and jumped through all the hoops to legally purchase doesn't make you a crazed homicidal ticking timebomb just because someone thinks there's no "use" for you to have one.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you wish to exploit this alleged loophole, you had better keep your paperwork handy, because that is the only thing distinguishing it from a plain old sawn off shotgun.

 

[rbernie]

That, and the box and receipt from the FFL showing that this was a factory configuration.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

If you wish to exploit this alleged loophole, you had better keep your paperwork handy, because that is the only thing distinguishing it from a plain old sawn off shotgun.

No different than an AR pistol . . .

Mike

 

[armoredman]

Handy breaching tool with standoff muzzle device. Short and maneuverable home defense firearm with a heavy duty payload. Fun toy at the range. Cool gun to photograph, and raise the blood pressure of liberals and leftists for miles around.

There's 4 uses off the top of my head. Also the 5th Universal Use - BECAUSE I CAN. I, personally, wouldn't have one, having fired PGO shotguns in the past and my wrist still regrets it, but they are neat for those who like them.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh, yes please, by all means feel free to own such a thing and put it to whatever legal use you can dream up. I'm sorry my words were interpreted to mean that I thought such a contraption should be banned. I'd no more ban this than any other object I consider frivolous or lacking in any practical value- like hula hoops and slinkys.

But at the same time I get a little weirded out when a firearm falls into the same area of taxonomy as children's toys.

So while I would never advocate banning them, I don't know that I'd have a whole lot more to say to someone who would spend money on one.

 

[redbullitt]

I wouldn't mind playing with one of those is 20 or 28 gauge lol.

 

[Theohazard]

So while I would never advocate banning them, I don't know that I'd have a whole lot more to say to someone who would spend money on one.

Why are you so opposed to these? I think they can be more practical for HD than a normal shotgun in some situations.

I had an 870 that I bought primarily for home defense. But the darn thing was long; way too long. A normal-sized stock combined with an 18" barrel was just too long for anything but stationary bedroom defense, and I have an AR-15 for that. Then our shop got a bunch of these 14" barrel 590A1s in at a real cheap price. They came without a grip and were actually Form 3ed as Title 2 AOWs, which made them NFA items just like a silencer or a short-barrel rifle. I've always wanted an AOW shotgun, so I sold my 870 and bought one. I'm waiting on my tax stamp as we speak.

I'm going to buy a Shockwave grip and set it up just like the one in the OP's picture. At that length it doesn't need to be an AOW, but an AOW is just a $5 tax stamp and I already have a trust, so I might as well give myself the leeway to change grips or barrel length if I want. Sure, a short-barrel shotgun with a stock would be more practical than an AOW, but short-barrel shotguns are illegal in WA. Besides, I saved $195 on the tax stamp.

Sure, I bought it because it was cheap and cool, but a pistol-grip shotgun isn't as hard to shoot as many people think. And that's because many people seem to think the best way to shoot a pistol-grip shotgun is from the hip, but that's not always true. Many people find it more effective to shoot it like this:

https://youtu.be/bgXAcRiE-Rk

(Warning: explicit language in that video.)

Anyone who claims that you'll hit yourself in the eye shooting like that either hasn't tried it or isn't using the proper technique. The key is to take an aggressive stance while locking your support arm and using it to absorb most of the recoil. I actually prefer a more aggressive stance than the one used in the video, but that seems to work for him.

I've used that technique on a lightweight Mossberg 500 Serbu AOW with a 6.5" barrel while shooting slugs and 00 buck, and it worked really well. I was able to point-shoot center-mass at regular combat distances. So I'm pretty sure my heavy 14" 590A1 will be a comparative breeze to shoot.

 

[pjeski]

I'm going to buy a Shockwave grip and set it up just like the one in the OP's picture. At that length it doesn't need to be an AOW, but an AOW is just a $5 tax stamp and I already have a trust, so I might as well give myself the leeway to change grips or barrel length if I want. Sure, a short-barrel shotgun with a stock would be more practical than an AOW, but short-barrel shotguns are illegal in WA. Besides, I saved $195 on the tax stamp.

While the tax is $5 to transfer an AOW on a form 4, the tax to make an AOW (form 1) is still $200. If you have a SOT assemble the AOW and engrave it, it can be transferred for $5, but there will be the cost for the SOT's services.