Is this really what tasers were meant for?

[rocket lad]

Ok, after refreshing myself on the details of the Miranda rights, you're right. However, you're still arguing that people should just lay down and take these unwarranted acts by cops. Good to know we should never question authority.

Also, what's with the reference to the 'hero/s of the revolution'? What revolution? Who is trying to be a hero?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

lets take it differently have you ever gotten a speeding ticket?

 

[Geno]

It seems to me that we are reading ever more of these types of stories. I'll finally speak out as to my concern.

I have an electronic stimulator inside of my spine due to considerable damage sustained in an automobile accident. The stimulator lies on the spinal sack and transmits electronic impulses to the spinal cord to block pain. I have to turn it off even to walk through a storefront security. Don't even get me started about getting groped as I attempt to pass through airports...I have to opt for the pre-marital level of stroke me head-to-toe. What humiliation!

Anyhow, this implant could kill or paralyze me if I were hit with a taser. So, in my case, what is a man to do if he comes face-to-face with a fool like those we have witnessed lately? I always hand over my MDL, my MCPL and my implant card. But, in the end, policy seems to protect the police, not the victim, and it even protects foolish or criminal police. I doubt that I am the only person in Amerika with an implant.

I sense a slippery slope under the guise of "less lethal". Not in my case is it less lethal.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

if youb got a beef take it to court. what dimwit tells a cop "no before i sign we're gonna drive back and you show me the sign" was he an only child mommas boy?

 

[rocket lad]

lets take it differently have you ever gotten a speeding ticket?

Yep, and I signed it knowing full well that I was guilty. See, I believe in taking responsibility for things when I'm in the wrong - unlike some of these police we hear about busting into the wrong house, tasering people senslessly, etc.

 

[Geno]

I still disagree. There were two options: annotate refuses to sign, or arrest. What person would not have an adverse reaction at the point the officer pulls the taser? Two wrongs do not one right make.

Doc2005

 

[Reyn]

IMO the officer could have done it differently but was within guidelines of usage. Whoever suggested tackling the man is ignorant. Now you wanna go hands on by yourself possibly rolling out into traffic and run the risk of the guy getting hold of your gun. If he had went hands on and started getting beat down and resorted to his handgun then he would have been criticized for not using the taser in the first place.

 

[ceetee]

Hey, Doc... you're the second person I know with one of those. Every time this question comes up, I say the same thing: What about cases of mistaken identity? What about a cop that just flat out enjoys Tasing people?

I've never before even heard of someone being arrested for refusing to sign a speeding ticket. The only thing that I've ever known to happen is that the officer writes "refused to sign" on the ticket, and it becomes a court problem. If the speeder fails to show up in court, his license is revoked, and a bench warrant issued. Sure, it may take a few months for the cop to see justice done, but it's a heckuva lot safer, for all parties involved.

I'm all for Tasing people as a means of self-defense, or to keep them from hurting themselves (or others), but for refusing to sign a friggin' speeding ticket? C'mon... this should be a non-issue. It sounds like this cop is on a serious power trip. What do you think he would do to prevent a jaywalking incident?

 

[Wayne G.]

did you fellers have a "safe word" in case it got outa hand? or an instructor to keep it in line?
i see this a a preventable event. sign ticket prevent it. realize nor signing gets you a cool ride in the back seat and put hands behind your back prevent it. not walk back towards truck talking out tail prevent it
its not that hard to get a speeding ticket unless you make it hard.
shoot check out how quickly the young hero of the revolution recovers from"THE BRUTAL TASING" he'd been worse off with out it. getting face pressed into pavement is not at all like sparring

You ought to be tasered for making me read that fragmented dribble.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

45 nut sorry you are right want me to have my kid zap me with the stun gun? i'm afraid she might like it though.


ceetee
"I've never before even heard of someone being arrested for refusing to sign a speeding ticket. "

you need to get out more. seen it happen had it happen to me back when i too was tdfoc. i was 16 though

 

[Deavis]

Weapons are for defense, not to force compliance.

I'm sorry but that is a a ridiculous statement. The only way to force compliance is to either use force or dangle the threat of force. That is like defining a word by using a word. Forcing compliance involves force and force involves violence or the threat of. Force is accomplished with weapons of offense, there is no other way to apply force. Fists, sticks, rocks, whatever, they are the agents of force. To say that weapons are for defense alone ignores thousands of years of offensive weapon use.

Further, people generally require prodding to comply with something they don't want to do. In this case the officer had asked for compliance verbally, it didn't work. What would you do next to end the situation? Stand there for an hour arguing? Beg him to sign? Hand him daisies? The real issue is that he had a non-violent way of ending the confrontation. Write "Refused to Sign" and leave it at that. I think he should have taken that option but for whatever reason he didn't. Given the road he chose to pursue, tasering the guy, rather than physcially restraining him, which is pretty risky for both people involved, I think he made the correct choice.

Let me see, shoot me, beat me with a baton, or wrestle around on a very hard surface trying to subdue me? Hmm... what do I, Johnny Lawbreaker, want? Oh wait, I broke the law and am continuing to do so by ignoring lawful orders, why do I get a choice?

 

[TCB in TN]

I've never before even heard of someone being arrested for refusing to sign a speeding ticket. The only thing that I've ever known to happen is that the officer writes "refused to sign" on the ticket, and it becomes a court problem. If the speeder fails to show up in court, his license is revoked, and a bench warrant issued. Sure, it may take a few months for the cop to see justice done, but it's a heckuva lot safer, for all parties involved.

Exactly right, the Officer wasn't satisfied with giving the ticket, he expected the guy to do it HIS way, submit NOW. Most officers would have just written down the "refused to sign" and let the guy be the jerk he was. But this officer was just as big a jerk and was determined to show him who was BOSS!

Dumb@ss driver is just that, but it sure looks like the officer was power tripping to say the least. But my question is which is the more dangerous to society?

 

[BsChoy]

I dont' monday morning quarterback other cops but, my training states that the Taser is on the same deboor level as pepper spray. You need to attempt whats called "soft hand" then "hard hand" control but only after ordering the subject to comply verbally....if that fails then you are clear to use either weapon, After those its a baton/asp.

 

[Noxx]

If he's under arrest, he has to be read his rights. He wasn't read his rights, so it was an unlawful arrest, and he'll most certainly be cleared of anything

Just as a point of procedure, this is not correct, too much TV. You are required to be informed of your miranda rights prior to any question, not as part and parcel of your arrest.

Frankly, the guy was combative, ignored the officer and attempted to return to his vehicle, for who knows what, and the options for the officer are to let him go, tase him, or attempt to tackle him. It's a bad idea to tie up with suspects, why let them within range of all the weapons on your person?

I'm the first to cry foul at police abuse, but this is really a tempest in a teapot.

 

[target1911]

He should have tackled and physically restrained him first. It's called the continuum of force

The problem with this is that it is very easy for the LEO to loos e the upper hand, the altercation could easily end up IN the street, Leo could get knocked out, and even loose his gun. More injuries could come from Hand to Hand than the taser. Most of the deaths that result from the tazers are speed freaks whos heart rate is already thru the roof. So the extra juice just thins the Gene Pool.

How can anyone say "use the asp first"? If yo are worried about injuries that is a backwards way of thinking. An Asp Baton causes severe muscle/bone injuries. In MOST cases the zap from a tazer just inmoblizes you for a few seconds.

I think that if someone in anyway is resisting arrest....ZAP THEIR DUMB A$$.

I will finish this by saying....Yes I do agree that there are some cops with bad attitudes and over step their bounds and go to far,
BUT...When you are resisting arrest, you are asking for it.

 

[TCB in TN]

When you are resisting arrest, you are asking for it.

But WHY was he being arrested to begin with? He refused to sign a ticket. Let it go, if he fights it show up on court with your video. Loser pays the tickets, gets made to look like a jerk, officer gets patted on the back for being professional and look like he is concerned with Serve and Protect. As it is..... not so much so.

 

[BsChoy]

In NY we don't have people sign their tickets we just issue. But if we did you could charge the person with Obstruction of Governmental Administration...a crime unless there was an alternate method of letting them not sign already worked into the system. If not OGA than probably disorderly conduct

 

[Jamie C.]

But WHY was he being arrested to begin with? He refused to sign a ticket.

TCB, in TN it's "Citation in lieu of arrest".

Meaning it's either sign the traffic ticket or go to jail.

And if you pitch a fit with the officer who's doing the ticket-writing, it'll almost always be "Arrest in lieu of citation".

Oh, and there was a case here in TN not long ago of a college girl getting drug out of her car for refusing to sign a speeding ticket. Last I heard, she was making no headway with her excessive force lawsuit.


J.C.

 

[TCB in TN]

TCB, in TN it's "Citation in lieu of arrest".

Meaning it's either sign the traffic ticket or go to jail.

And if you pitch a fit with the officer who's doing the ticket-writing, it'll almost always be "Arrest in lieu of citation".

Oh, and there was a case here in TN not long ago of a college girl getting drug out of her car for refusing to sign a speeding ticket. Last I heard, she was making no headway with her excessive force lawsuit.


J.C.

I didn't say that the officer was not legally allowed to arrest, just that an officer can sure build up some good will and some good PR for officers by being the bigger man. The officer had the option, but chose to prove a point. Not over drugs, or assault, or theft, over over anything serious, just over a speeding ticket. My dad always told me that you pick your battles. This sure doesn't look like one that a smart man would pick to fight about.

 

[Risasi]

Oh this thread is going to get locked. There is no good that can come out of a thread like this.


On paper the mechanics of what this officer did, I have no problem with it. The alleged speeder should have signed the ticket and moved on. Also, he does NOT need to be read his miranda rights when arrested.
When you sign those things all it's saying is you agree to pay the fine, or show up in court. That's all. This fellow should have used common sense, and not been so stupid. This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Personally unless I believe I (or some loved one) am under threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death, or it is some heinous unlawful crime (I can't imagine what) being committed by someone in authority, I will ALWAYS comply with a LEO's demand. At least in our present society.
If the alleged had done so he wouldn't have been tasered. Come on people, what happened to courtesy in our society? Give the cop the benefit of the doubt, he's just doing his job. Argue it in court, not on the highway.
Anything less is merely a facade for anarchy. And though corrupt, I don't believe tyranny has consumed our country (yet).


This guy will raise a big stink, but most likely he'll be found guilty of resisting arrest, or obstruction of justice, etc. The officer will be found blameless, as I think he should be in this case.




RE; Tasers. They are overused. They are clearly not "non-lethal" devices, but are perceived as such. This leads to their overuse in non-compliance situations.
And of course there is the proverbial discussion surrounding abuse of power and rights. But most of this isn't the officer's problem. If anything it is a department/perception issue. And then a corruption of our judicial system. People demand their rights, but they are not willing to pay for said rights. Freedom isn't free.


If you don't want to see these scenarios happening you have to fight for the right to be self-governed rather than one of the governed. But the reality is that will not happen anytime soon. People are more interested in saving 15% at Walmart or watching American Idol and receiving government handouts, instead of making an honest living, staying out of debt, and being "we the people". Truly we are a bunch of fat, dumb sheep now. Welcome to the new America.





Anyway, I hope a mod locks this soon. All it will do is lead to more "us vs them" cop bashing rhetoric. It's not the officer's fault this country is screwed up like it is.

Really this thread belongs on APS.

 

[Jamie C.]

Y'know, when I wore a badge, I wasn't out there to do PR or to be a "bigger man". I was out there to do my job. That job was to hold people accountable for breaking the law. I always tried to do it as politely and with as little friction with the public as possible, but still, certain things just had to be done, or it was my ass.

And no, I don't think the officer was "proving a point". His options were for the person to sign the ticket or go to jail. It was the other guy who chose poorly and made the speeding ticket a MUCH bigger deal than it should have been.

As for how the officer executed the arrest... I don't personally find fault with it. He didn't send the fellow to the hospital, or get both him and the other fellow run over.

Anyway, when you put on a badge you don't necessarily get to "choose your battles". You pretty much go "fight" where you're sent, and you do it in the manner your superiors have dictated. ( Anybody know what department policy was for that officer, concerning letting someone drive away without signing the ticket? )


And for what it's worth, I doubt a truly smart man would ever go into Law Enforcement to begin with... 'cause I'm pretty sure that he'd figure out ahead of time that it's a job that'll most likely never cause him anything but grief and aggravation.


J.C.

 

[mekender]

first, in some departments deployment of chemicals is actually a higher level of force than use of a tazer... chemicals include CS, OC and other chemical compliance techniques... those often require supervisor approval unless there is intimidate danger... tazers most often do not require such approval...

this guy had not been searched for weapons, he turned away from the officer started to walk away with his hands near his pocket... sorry but i bet he wont do that again... then his super intelligent wife jumps out hysterically screaming... shes lucky she didnt get hit too...

i know this much, in some cities, use of a tazer is authorized in ANY situation where a suspect refuses to comply with the FIRST order a LEO gives... there is no need for a repeat of the order, they can simply deploy the tazer... ive seen it happen... guy wanted on 2 counts of assault with a deadly weapon crashed his car after a chase, ran and ducked into the restaurant next to my bar... cop opened the door to the restaurant, screamed "get your hands up" 2 times, and before even finishing the second command he was using the tazer... you think it cant be done, try arguing with a cop the next time you get a ticket... let me assure you, cops LOVE to be told what they can and cant do...

 

[TCB in TN]

Y'know, when I wore a badge, I wasn't out there to do PR or to be a "bigger man". I was out there to do my job. That job was to hold people accountable for breaking the law. I always tried to do it as politely and with as little friction with the public as possible, but still, certain things just had to be done, or it was my ass.

And no, I don't think the officer was "proving a point". His options were for the person to sign the ticket or go to jail. It was the other guy who chose poorly and made the speeding ticket a MUCH bigger deal than it should have been.

As for how the officer executed the arrest... I don't personally find fault with it. He didn't send the fellow to the hospital, or get both him and the other fellow run over.

Anyway, when you put on a badge you don't necessarily get to "choose your battles". You pretty much go "fight" where you're sent, and you do it in the manner your superiors have dictated. ( Anybody know what department policy was for that officer, concerning letting someone drive away without signing the ticket? )


And for what it's worth, I doubt a truly smart man would ever go into Law Enforcement to begin with... 'cause I'm pretty sure that he'd figure out ahead of time that it's a job that'll most likely never cause him anything but grief and aggravation.

I am sorry but you are ignoring the 3rd option (or at least it was stated that it was an option in WA). He could have just marked it as "refused to sign" and went about his business. The end result would have been much better.

As for fighting where you are sent and how, well again explain to me how pushing the issue (if as was stated earlier that "refused to sign" was an option) this choice improves anything? I guess that I am still under impression that LEO's should be more concerned with smoothing things out rather than escalating situations that very well might have been easily smoothed over.

As for you job as a LEO NOT being about PR and such well you must be living in the dark ages. All around the country locals govs are hiring PR people to smooth over situations just like this. The good press that a situation like this could generate, if handled correctly, goes on to build trust and good will in the community. This is something that is obviously needed (as evidenced by threads like this). In the business world there is a saying, that "perception equals reality". If your business, or as in this case LEA, is percieved by their customers as a good company then they will flourish, if the perception is poor, then well business usually does not do well. Most local LEA's, are headed by elected officials, and even the heads of state and fed agencies are appointed by elected officials, so I would have to completely disagree with you about your job NOT being to provide good PR. Just go ask you local sherrif and see his thoughts on the matter.

 

[ilbob]

In response to Priv8ter, "And, so what if the man was getting back into his car to flee? The officer already had the mans license, registration, and license plate number" Are you suggesting that when someone fails to comply with a lawful order a Police Officer should just turn tail and let the person leave?

The police agency stated that all that is necessary is for the cop to note "refused to sign" on the citation. Trying to force compliance with the "sign or else" order seems to have precipitated the incident, and using the Taser does seem a little excessive. The police agency's own statements do not seem to support the "sign or else" order was lawful in the first place.

It is stupid to argue with a cop once you have been stopped anyway, since it will just make them even more intractable, but the cop maybe showed some very bad judgment in unnecessarily escalating the situation.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

I love reading the lawyerly responses on here.... most of you listen to half truths and conjecture and then claim it to be fact...

you don't have to be read miranda to be arrested... it's a questioning thing...

good tasing... dumb driver.... cooperate with the cops, simple as that... if it is truly an unlawful arrest, sue...

lotsa dirtbags think that by mearly not cooperating they can somehow get a by on being responsible for their actions.... its the "I'm gonna pretend your not here" syndrome...

Like folks running from the cops and getting hit with eluding or obstructing charges...."what I didn't know you were a cop, or I didn't know you wanted me to stop..." works real well let me tell you.