Is this sporting?

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RightIsRight

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The other day I watched a hunting program on TV. It detailed a cougar hunt out west somewhere. Four dogs were let loose, they treed a cat and the hunter walked up under the tree and shot the cougar. I know this method is also utilized to hunt black bears.

How can one find that sporting? To me, that is no better than shooting the proverbial fish in the barrel.

I hunt, but I would take no pleasure in using dogs to tree an animal and shoot it from 10 yards away. If the animal were a man-killer or known livestock menace, I wouldn't have a problem with this method. But as a "sporting hunt", I just don't get it.
 
What probably wasn't shown was the hunter(s) in their running or fast hiking over what can be several miles of rough country. If you haven't done that in the mountains, well, it can be a raving bitch-kitty. A real endurance test. Frankly, that's more sport than I've ever wanted. :)

Without the dogs, just the mere sighting of a cougar is blind luck.

After us, good ol' homo sap, the cougar is the top of the food chain in most mountain states. Without some control on the numbers, you can easily wind up with a situation like that we have in south Brewster County, Texas. Some years, I see more lion tracks than deer tracks. Big Bend National Park and the Big Bend Ranch State Park are sanctuaries; they don't have all that many deer, either.

Art
 
Likely they'd say the same thing about someone who sits in a tree just waiting to whack whatever walks by.

In both cases, there are a lot of skills and preparation required that are not readily apparent to the casual observer.

Just a difference in perspective.
 
What you saw was the culmination of the hunt, the very end of it. Art is right , they may have spent all day running up and down the mountains. If you want to try it you better be in really great condition.
 
All you need to do is try it once! The work in hunting with dogs is the most I've ever but into hunting. You have to find the right dog(s), raise them, feed them, care for them and train them. It takes years to prepare dogs to hunt. If you hunt bears or cougar, they have the option or turning around and tearing up you or your dogs and walking away. It is hard and demanding hunting. If you don't like hunting with dogs, that is fine with me. There is room for disagreement. I see nothing unsporting about it. I ask that you not interfere with those of us that see it differently.

David
 
Right is Right,

The question you should be asking yourself is, is it right to even question the sportsmanship of my fellow hunters(not trash or poachers.) I just had a friend come in this past week, we discussed this very issue, he happens to write for 40 different magazines and take pictures. I threw him right into the briar patch(actually prickly pear, white brush, and all sorts of good stuff) behind a pack of hog dogs. I think he was hooked at the end of the day. Then we baited with corn all over, he never ended up with a shot. He keeps a Blog on his sight, i'd like you to take the time to read it.

Master hunter Flash page

The whole site...
Masterhunter page

I think what he he has to say is spot on, though I haven't always felt that way.

We have far to many enemies to deal with as Sportsman to be worried about bickering within our own ranks. Hunters helped ban hunting of critters with dogs in many states, they'd do well to remember the quote about, "First they came for the.... Finally they came for me and nobody was left to help..."

We are in this together, we all should be brothers and sisters in nature, simply because we choose to sit atop the food chain.

I've never run a lion with a pack of dogs, I know people who have, some continue to do it, other refuse to do it again, but even the ones who refuse to do it again, don't refuse because it was to easy of a hunt, all say it was to hard of a hunt for them to ever try again, that it might just kill them. Now, have you ever felt your life was in danger while sitting in a stand?
 
RightisRight,
Bout the same way they hunt coons. I've never done it. But I've listened to coon hunters down in the swamps in the winter time. Swamps I hesitate to trek through in daylight. They are moving damn fast. They're covering a lot of ground. This particular night the party got separated and lost in the swamp. They work for those coons alot harder than I work for my deer. Is it sport?

Well, I followed some folks with a dog tracking down a lost wounded buck a couple of months back. Fastest half mile I've covered in a number of years. Now we weren't hunting. We were making sure we didn't shoot a deer and let it die a slow death and waste a magnificent animal.

But there is enough of a parallel to tell you this: Yes, there's a lot of sport in that miles long chase behind the dogs after that cougar.

You're using blinders to look at just one small part of the hunt instead of considering the entire hunt from start to finish.

Now if you had guides working the dogs and treeing the cat and then the "hunter" was woke up after the cat was treed, ate breakfast, trucked out to the spot, got out of the truck and shot the cougar then yeah, not much sport. It ain't quite like that.


that is no better than shooting the proverbial fish in the barrel

As far as the fish in the barrel shoot goes...whether or not it's sport depends on how you got them in the barrel in the first place. Think about it.
 
I've watched a fair amount of the Outdoor Channel during these last six months. One thing that stands out is that they show the easy parts of hunts. Many of the programs would lead one to believe that it's a fairly quick process to go out and see a trophy animal. (No to mention that many of the hunts are on game ranches, with higher populations of trophies.) "Buy camo, hire a guide, be successful."

Once again, it's shown that you can't judge reality by TV programs...

Art
 
I should have been more clear in my original post. It appeared to be a canned hunt on a game ranch.

As far as me giving another hunter problems; not gonna happen. As long as any method of hunting is done legally, I don't have an issue with it. I guess I just don't find the "Buy camo, hire a guide, be successful.", as Art described it, to be very sporting. But to each his own.
 
Lemme clarify: The TV shows make it APPEAR that all is needed is the "buy camo..." deal.

To go a bit further with this: Consider, say, some guy from a major metro area. He's from a background of not much shooting, and no hunting at all. He sees some hunting shows. He figures, "Hey, that's neat!" Starts reading Cabela's catalogs and such. Goes to his local "GunsRUs" store and maxes out his VISA. He follows up on a guide service business card on the bulletin board.

So, for his $2,500 he spends two days being taken to and picked up from a stand. Most likely, he gets a decent buck.

Okay. This ain't our style, generally. But, face it: The poor guy doesn't know any better! Where'd he ever get a chance to learn?

Who ever took him out and taught him about walkin'-huntin'? Whoever discussed ethics and habitat management and deer behavior? Or explained that camo is unnecessary, outside of bird-hunting? Whoever invited him to go along and enjoy BSing around a campfire? And ten gazillion other things that go into the whole hunting deal?

What we here consider a "canned hunt" might well be this guy's thrill of a lifetime.

:), Art
 
Yea but jeez

Okay. This ain't our style, generally. But, face it: The poor guy doesn't know any better! Where'd he ever get a chance to learn?

Art, I agree with you to a point.

A few months ago I saw an Outdoor Channel hunt where they set up a tripod feeder and put what looked to be a three foot fence at about 15 yards around it. They set up a tree stand just outside the corall and filmed this so-called sportsman arrowing a nice buck. The deer didn't even act like wild deer. Must be they got a lot of complaints because its one of the few that I haven't seen repeated.

Know that I have no problem with setting up a stand on a QDM style food plot but that show showed just plain, ugly deer baiting. Its stuff like that that gives us hunters a bad name. At the very least the general public should be shown something that is at least close to fair-chase.

By the way - I don't like seeing them hunt from those elevated townhouses either. Someday I'm expecting them to advertise a wet bar and electricity.
 
RightIsRight,

I'll tell you one thing for sure. I'll bet you last months morgtage payment that 95% of the guys on this board aren't in good enough shape to hunt bears behind dogs in the Rockies. I've gone 25 miles in a day on foot across some of the roughest high altitude country in America. And that was just day one, we didn't catch the bear for five more days all of which were tougher than anything most hunters have ever done anywhere.

Lion is generally a little easier however, I just about killed a fairly in shape outdoors/hunting writer several years ago on a little bitty ole three day hunt. Steep country in the dead of winter and cats always run uphill.

I haven't been hunting behind dogs for two years now and I'd just about kill myself if I just went and did it without some serious working out first.

Here's the deal when your hunting deer and you get tired you just go home and have a cold one.

with a pack of dogs you've got to go where they do and when you're beat and sore and tired and out of breath you just have to suck it up becuase you can't just leave you're dogs. And if they tree up several miles away you go l even if it's at getting dark 15 miles from the truck. I've spent more nights out in the middle of the winter with just a jacket and dip of copenhagen then I care to remember.

There is notthing unsporting about hunting behind dogs AT ALL!!!

You should go try it. I promise it'll change you're out look on the world.
 
A few years ago, a couple of co-workers went out west to hunt cats. They were working with a guide and hunting with dogs. The guide was even providing horses. Before they went, we ribbed them a bit about how they weren't REALLY hunting.

Well, they came back about 8 days later. Both had lost a few pounds, were sunburned, with huge blisters on their feet and saddlesores elsewhere. They'd spent the better part of a week roaming all over, chasing cats which kept slipping away... hiking and running in terrain tough enough that the horses had to stay behind...

... and, they never even saw a cat. Saw lots of prints, chased a couple, but never caught one.

Of course, we ribbed them about that too. :D
 
:neener: You've never seen coon hunting until you've seen some guys following their dogs, riding on mules in the dark! Not just any mules but half quarter horse or cutting horse mulse which have been trained for three or four years. These mules are trained to just jump up in the back of the pickup truck to ride to wherever the hunt is taking place!

As for the original topic, I'd say that lion hunting is sporting. A lot more sporting than sitting in the living room watching 22 overweight guys chasing a fake pig's bladder around on plastic grass.

A lot of hunters use .22s or a .38 pistol or even just a bow.
 
nygunguy, a fence around a feeder is to keep the livestock out.

In some areas, you either hunt from a stand or forget it. Thick mesquite or blackthorn brush that you can't do other than crawl through, or where the visibility is measured in feet or a very few yards. Some Florida jungles are equally troublesome. So, a feeder lures the deer out, and the stand lets you see if something desirable shows up.

If you want a real thrill, go walking hunting in a 10,000-acre pasture on a cloudy day. Flat to very gently rolling country. Lots of prickly pear cactus "jungles", and thick brush about eight feet high or so. And you get a bit turned around and ask yourself, "Which way is camp?" :)

My preference is either walking-hunting in open country, going to where I think Bambi is laid up for the day. Kick him out of bed, and if his horns are a good bit wider than his ears, have at him! Or, I'l play sneaky-snake in thicker covered country, walking a bit and sitting a while...

Most places, nowadays, have too many whitetail for the habitat. So, whatever holds down the numbers is okay by me...

:), Art
 
Makes Sense

Art,

The fence now makes sense but it still doesn't sit well with me. Here in NY it's just the opposite; they try and keep the deer out of the cattle feeders and bean crops.

Sounds like you and I enjoy the same style of hunting. Find the SW "Toe" of Livingston County here in NY. That's where I hunt. Its an agricultural area on the slopes of the Genesee River. We spend our time hunting deep ravines and hillsides all feeding water to the Genesee. Here a 300 acre cornfield is huge; a 10000 acre pasture is unthinkable.

We too have our share of thornberry thickets where the deer are almost impossible to hunt and where its easy to get twisted up. However, the most twisted I ever got was during a lake effect snowstorm.

I'll typically walk the hardwoods and fields on the edges of the thickets or above the ravines. In bow season I set tree stands in hemlock trees (best cover) on the transitional edges (hardwoods to thicket, thicket to field, etc.) or where ever I see a decent trail. After one pulls a deer out of one of those ravines a couple of times they really concentrate on getting a good shot ;) .
 
nygunguy,

Imagine one of your ravines you talked about, with brush so thick you can literally stick your hand out and not see it in front of your face. Now make that brush be roughly 15% protein, imagine a few washes that hold water throughout that thicket, just enough for a deer to drink. Now imagine 500-15,000 acres of that. Then tell me why deer feeders are popular in parts of the country. I can walk you threw, actually break your way through 400acres of stuff on the place I hunt and you won't see a deer, they just move away from the sound. So what happens in a dry year when the neighbor has all the water, or a wet year when water is everywhere?

You've never been here, never hunted it, how do you know it is unsporting? I killed my 5 whitetails this year, I killed 4 of the five at a food or water source, none at the 4 corn and protein feeders I have. 2 at oak trees eating acorns(how is this any different from a corn feeder) 1 coming to water at a small tank{pond}(how is it any different from a corn feeder), and one old buck who was chasing a doe(how is that much different than a corn feeder?) You take advantage of the quarry in any way you can. Do you refuse to hunt trails into soy bean fields or corn patches? Do you never hunt around water?

I killed two deer eating acorns or in the process of eating acorns, a doe with my bow, and a spike with my rifle at what many would consider unsporting distance. I still hunted along a creek and sat next to a small tank to collect my next doe. My trophy buck I spotted from 600yds away and belly crawled 400yds across a hay field to collect him(it took a couple trips to the chiropracter to fix those aches). My last doe I had the outdoor writer I talked about above down. He happened to witness and photograph that stalk. I fed corn down some ranch roads before daylight and we spent the morning stillhunting those roads and taking pictures of various critters(no deer for three hours along that track). Finally we spotted a doe a few hundred yards out. He stayed to film while I took my AR-15 and some 62gr sp's and stalked her. I covered the first 100yds bent over using pear bushes to shield my approach, the next hundred yards was worm style, when I got to my 100yds I was comfortable with the .223 making a clean kill I couldn't shoot, so I closed 30 more yards to gain some height for a clean shot off the bipod. I fired, she fell in that spot and I put my last deer in the freezer.

Now was I sporting? Should it really matter? Every deer above was drawn to something. Should we only hunt deer in places with no type of food, water, or sexual temptations? My friend hunted hard with me for 3 full days along corn fed ruts and roads. He never bagged a javelina or hog. We walked a few miles every day quietly and slowly. We did everything right and still came up empty. Is that sporting? Does it really matter?

PETA would say anything that involves us killing an animal is cruel and unsporting, why should any of us, support any facet of what they do? I didn't harvest a thing this year, I killed it, I killed it in any way, shape or form I could, not because I wanted to eat fresh unpolluted meat, not because I wanted to look cute at the hunters ball with my pictures, I killed it because I have a desire to hunt and kill. I'm not much different than a coyote, bobcat, or a mountain lion, I was put her with a prey drive. The only obligation I feel to the critters I kill is to kill them cleanly and if at all possible instantly.

Of these five, the bow killed doe ran farthest, 75yds to pile-up, the spike and 13pt traveled less than 20yds, the does dropped instantly to rifle shots. Is it sporting? Does it matter? PETA probably wouldn't like the fact I just was eating deer roast as I typed this, because they think it unethical to kill things. You may not like it if I killed the deer over a corn pile... Why should you ever for an instant even begin to support one tenant or portion of a tenant that those crazies do?

We are a part of the food chain, we have no moral ethical dilema to contend with in killing our game, except that we do so as quickly as possible, and that is more a respect issue for me. I hope when my turn comes it is fast and as painless as possible; sorta the Golden rule.

Where or how do we draw the line? Who sets the moral standard? What is right from wrong? We can all agree that poaching is wrong, we can all agree that folks shooting up roadsigns aren't hunters. But how often do we sell out our fellow sportsman over our own personal opinions and choices. Do you think they banned dog hunting in many states without sportsmans help? Do you reckon they banned bear baiting without support from the spot and stalk hunters?

We must quit selling one another out, hunting is no different than guns, it is probably in most areas just as threatened. If we don't all hang together, we will in time hang seperately.
 
One thing about elevated stands: Does it really matter whether or not it's a few boards tied/nailed to tree limbs, or a box-blind on steel legs? Where is it written that Mighty Nimrod must be uncomfortable in order to be "sporting"? :D

I have an overlook spot, where I can watch a creek bottom and some brushy areas from fifty feet above this little patch of floodplain. Does it matter whether I sit behind a dagger plant or just park my truck there and sit in the cab? If I'm behind the dagger plant, does it matter if I'm sitting on the ground, or on a pad, or on a folding stool or in a folding chair? Can we pick fly poop out of pepper?

I once had a non-hunter proclaim to me that my use of a scope wasn't sporting; wasn't fair to the deer. Okay, I sez, here's my deal: I'll mount a camera on a gunstock. I'll set it up where the normal-position trigger will operate the camera. I'll mount crosshairs in the lens system. You take the rig out deer hunting, and bring me a picture of a running buck of eight or more points, with the crosshairs positioned for a kill shot. The bet is $1,000 that you can't do it.

He passed the deal. :)

It seems to me that we sometimes get a bit too worried about how other folks do their deals...

:), Art
 
"canned cougar hunt"

Now THATS funny.

Let me elaborate a little. The permit process out here ALONE is enough to keep this from being a reality. Not to mention the innate difficulty of the hunt in the first place. There is no such thing as an easy cougar hunt.
 
Art, St. Gunner:

I understand where you're coming from - its all relative to where you are and what conditions you're used. Its certainly not my place to judge the way others hunt. I'm sorry if I came across as judgmental; I was trying to express my opinion.

I would argue that there is significant difference between positioning and hunting from a portable stand and sitting in one of those hotels on stilts that I see on TV. Some of those are absolutely beautiful - I particularly like the log cabins. In the portable you are exposed and need to be alert for incoming animals. Its amazing how a whitetail can pick up movement not to mention scent. I'd never get away with some of the stuff I see them getting away with on TV; even from a hundred yards.

My first deer this year came from a stand set up on the edge of a field near a well used trail. It was a bow shot at 30 yards, she ran about 50 yards. This year the field was left to grow up. Next year it will be planted with some Biologic and my stand will be back in the same place. The Biologic is legal. We're planting it to attract and hold deer (I guess I'm not totally perfect :) ). Here in NY the tripod feeder would be illegal and considered baiting. I believe they've put into law something about CWD and manufactured foods (pellets).

My second deer came with my inline (see a previous post). I walked into a hay field end saw five deer feeding. After glassing them for about a half hour I shot one of them at about 200 yards. That one didn't really turn me on all that much. I didn't feel that I hunted the deer. I probably won't take a shot like that again because it seemed too easy. This is just my personal feeling; I know that someone else may feel very rewarded by a 200 yard shot.

My third deer came on a stiill hunt with my inline. I walked for four hours looking for fresh sign. When I finally found tracks in the snow I started hunting in earnest. I shot a nice buck (weight not rack) at about 50 yards after a short stalk. I felt pretty smug about that one.

Anyway I clearly hear both of you and appreciate the discussion.
 
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RightIsRight,
I totally understand where you are coming from. That was my perception of hunting a cougar using dogs prior to actually doing so. I was given the opportunity to go on a cougar hunt with a friend in northern Idaho, on public land. I thought the hunt would be pretty easy, ride a snowmobile around until we found some tracks, let the dogs loose to tree the cougar, then walk up and shoot. That's kinda what happened, but it was not easy at all.

First, I was unaware of the time and skill it takes to get a dog suitable for hunting. It takes a lot of work and patience with the dogs to prepare them.

Next, we road the snowmobiles around for almost the entire morning before seeing our first set of tracks, which were too old to track. This was another skill that I was unaware of. The ability to spot tracks, discern what they are, and how old they are. It takes a trained eye to spot them.

Eventually, we did find some bobcat tracks worth tracking. This is where the fun begins. The dogs followed the tracks up the mountain side and were onto it. Their barks got farther and farther away. Then their barking changed and was stationary. The owner could tell that they had something, so we started up the mountain. I was hiking through knee deep snow, up a mountain side, in a heavy forest. After climbing about 800 vertical feet, I got to within a few hundred yards of where the dogs were, then they took off up the mountain again. The bobcat must have jumped trees. I was so tired at this point. I continued up the mountain to where the dogs had been and was too tired to continue on. So I hung out there for a bit while my friend continued up the mountain. After 30 minutes, the dogs lost the trail and we returned back down the mountain. I was exhausted.

I was out there for three days, saw lots of tracks, but never saw a cat. Just because you have dogs doesn't mean it is a guarantee.

It might be different in other areas of the country, but that was some of the toughest hunting I had ever done and it really changed my perception of hunting with dogs.

Stay safe,
Tim
 
I've never done it myself, but from what I've seen and read, I happen to agree with both sides. The chase itself looks like it would be a blast! Hauling up, over, around, and through behind a pack of baying hounds would be a ton of fun. In fact I've toyed with the idea of trying to tag along on a DOW tagging trip for just that reason. I'm reasonably certain I'm in good enough shape to keep up and I think it'd be a fantastic experience.

It's the end of the chase where I lose interest. I've always found the kill to be a bit anticlimactic when hunting, but with this type of hunting it seems especially so. The chases I've seen on TV end with the hunters walking around the tree, high-fiving, snapping pictures, and in one case assembling a take down recurve, then shooting the lion out of the tree. Seems like more of an execution than hunting. At that point I'd just snap a photo or two and go home.

Should it be banned? Hell no. I just don't want to do it.
 
cougar hunting?

I saw the exact same show. In the beginning they talked about their home range shrinking to only the west and that their numbers are dwindling. Then they show the 2 dudes "tracking" the cougar from their truck. I don't think the hiked for more than 30 minutes. The guy shot it from a few feet away while trapped up a tree, how exciting. nice trophy for the dogs work.
 
ChefJeff1, the only place with a declining cougar population is Florida. The population is steady or is expanding in many other areas. Sightings are now being reported in many places where cougars were absent 50 to 100 years ago.

As far as the final scene in the hunt, I can only refer you to a comment from Ortega y Gassett, "One does not hunt in order to kill. One kills in order to have hunted." I guess that's a way of asking, "Well, why, really, are you out there?" Each individual has his own answer...

:), Art
 
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