Is 'two guns' carry really tactical?

[Island Beretta]

Just had to reassess 'two guns' carry after a pal got into a tussle and one of his guns was yanked (SOB carry) by one of the attackers. Apparently it would be extremely difficult to 'fight to retain' both guns in a physical tussle.

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun. Could come across as a 'plant' especially if eye-witnesses namely his cronies testifies that he was not armed.

Maybe better to go with a high quality gun and train our nails off. Hmmh..what do you think?

 

[skoro]

I think that in my USMC service, I never carried more than a single firearm. That's still good enough for me today. Some folks in high risk occupations/lifestyles might have other requirements.

 

[Hometeached1]

Just had to reassess 'two guns' carry after a pal got into a tussle and one of his guns was yanked (SOB carry) by one of the attackers. Apparently it would be extremely difficult to 'fight to retain' both guns in a physical tussle.

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun. Could come across as a 'plant' especially if eye-witnesses namely his cronies testifies that he was not armed.

Maybe better to go with a high quality gun and train our nails off. Hmmh..what do you think?

First off, I'm glad your friend is OK.
That is one reason it's good to have a pistol with a safety and carry with it on. A holster with retention, at least a thumb break and why SOB is really not the best for retention, it's hard to retain when you are putting yourself in a arm lock. Now if open carrying two handguns I think you have a point, but if one or both are concealed I think it's better to have two. One of the reasons I carry a second is that if someone is grabbing my handgun I can draw my second and shoot. As far as the legal aspect, there are many cases of LEOs who had someone grab their pistol and they drew a second pistol and shot them and it was justified.

 

[coyotehitman]

If one of my pistols were yanked, the second would be on target and smoking.

 

[tomrkba]

The problem is with his training. He would have never picked a SOB holster for that role. He needs to attend a basic retention class and Craig Douglas' ECQC course. He should change his method of carry for the BUG.

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun.

Not at all. It demonstrates intent. A gun grab is a murder in progress. It introduces a weapon into a situation where lethal force may not be justified, though two on one justifies it in my state.

 

[torqem]

if he has your gun, at arm's length, you'd better do something a lot faster and more effective than just pulling another gun. The latter is going to take at least a second, while he shoots you 4-5x. If he's backing off, tho, increasing space between you, you might have no choice but to dive to one side, drawing as you "fly" and roll. Maybe that will make him miss, or you can make it to cover. At arm's length, you can hit him in .10 second, if you are trained, have his wrist or elbow in a lock in 1/2 second.

 

[MedWheeler]

I have no issues or concerns with carrying multiple guns. I did it in LE, but rarely do so now.

The only jurisdictions in which a "legal nightmare" might present in the scenario the OP suggests would probably present one if even only one gun was carried and used ("non-2A-friendly" jurisdictions.)

 

[torqem]

In the given scenario, a spare gun, especially one that is deeply concealed, is going to be way inferior to having real hand to hand skills (and fitness). At arm's length, a ccw draw is going to take you 7-8x as long as it takes me to hit you. That's a really poor choice, unless the guy is backpedalling, making it hard for you to reach him. Your draw is going to take 1 second or more, probably quite a bit more, actually, and he can be shooting you 4-5x per second.

 

[scaatylobo]

2 as the least

I carried 2 or 3 as an LEO,we called it "THE NEW YORK RELOAD" as it was NYC policy for duty officers to carry both of their revolvers [ 4" & snub ] due to slow reloading under stress = being in actual gun fight.

It is very fast to access a second gun IF worn properly and CONCEALED from weapon snatch.

SOB carry is poor choice and I see it as a Hollywood thing [ WORST way to learn anything about guns ].

I still carry 2 at least,the firearm is a simple mechanical/chemical tool.

It can fail at ANY time,but only during actual use.

If that 'use' is while saving your butt,you do not want to try and get back into the fight while under fire with a broken/defective gun.

IF that is not your cuppa tea,so be it.

I am happy your friend came out alive.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

If one of my pistols were yanked, the second would be on target and smoking.

Couldn’t agree more. If you’re already in the process of attacking me and you grab a gun (irrespective of where it came from) that’s a deadly threat.

 

[David E]

Just had to reassess 'two guns' carry after a pal got into a tussle and one of his guns was yanked (SOB carry) by one of the attackers. Apparently it would be extremely difficult to 'fight to retain' both guns in a physical tussle.

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun. Could come across as a 'plant' especially if eye-witnesses namely his cronies testifies that he was not armed.

Maybe better to go with a high quality gun and train our nails off. Hmmh..what do you think?

Why was your armed friend engaging in a "tussle" when the other (unarmed?) guy has friends?

One reason (of many) to carry a second gun is in case the primary gets taken.

Legal nightmares are preferable to the good guys next of kin making funeral arrangements.

Too many people put Problem #2 (court aftermath) ahead of Problem #1 (surviving the encounter)

How, exactly, did it change your thoughts on two gun carry?

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't carry a BUG, but I certainly don't mock others who do. If one bad thing can happen, (you are in a fight,) certainly another bad thing can happen. (You lose your gun or it malfunctions.)

But yes, it is another item to keep track of, and another part of the plan that can go wrong. You have to practice full retention principles for all guns you carry. If that's more than one, you have more to keep track of.

 

[PabloJ]

SOB is not smart way of carrying a handgun.

 

[Mayvik]

BUG does not just fill a backup role. A shrouded snubby in an outer coat pocket when zipped up for winter...a weak side gun in case your strong arm is busy or disabled...a gun you can comfortably draw while seated in a car..all good reasons for another gun beyond just covering ammo depletion or mechanical failure.

 

[larry_minn]

I seldom carry two. BUT sometimes when I have insulated coveralls, heavy jacket zipped to throat.... a 2nd gun in jacket pocket has its place.

 

[lemaymiami]

I guess at one time or another I carried more than one weapon on duty (never even considered doing that when off-duty...). Since I was never able to find a configuration involving more than one firearm on my person that was satisfactory.... I decided that any possible advantage was out-weighed by the negatives in my case.

As a working cop, even as I advanced in rank, I occasionally came into situations where immediate violent physical exertion was one of those requrements (no, I don't miss rolling around in the gutter with someone who was very agitated, really didn't like me, and probably needed a bath....). None of that with occasional exceptions involved more than just the potential need for firearms -much more just an immediate reaction to the sudden demands of a confrontation when you least wanted it. I think one of the most frightening moments of my street life was when three of us were wrestling with a large crazy that was able to neutralize all of our efforts to put him in 'cuffs. While all that was happening one of my officer's handguns was actually laying on the offender's chest for anyone to seize it (we were all on the ground at the time -that loose handgun had been stripped from an officer's holster as he did a perfect judo hip toss -maybe not so perfect since it neatly removed his revolver in the process...)... That situation was finally resolved without more than a few scrapes and bruises for all involved when a fourth officer came on the scene and helped us secure the crazy after securing that loose sidearm, but it clearly illustrates the difference between carrying two or more handguns and having to live with the consequences if you lost control of one of them.

I guess I'm trying to say that the idea of carrying a backup weapon and the reality were far apart in my experience. Since the vast majority of my weapons experience was either in the military or in police work... I learned that any sidearm I carried was a far greater threat to me than to anyone I came into contact with day in and day out.

That's a thought worth considering before anyone makes the decision to carry more than one gun as an armed citizen... For that reason I'd re-title this thread to read ".... is it really practical?"

 

[torqem]

Open carry is one thing, even uniformed carry is high risk, because you are recognized to be an authority figure and because of the high odds that you will be "handling' a given problem. As a cop on uniformed duty, you are not allowed to just avoid it, as a civilian nearly always do.

I'd never bother to ccw 2, guns, just because of the hassle involved with carrying just one! I had to move normally pocket carried stuff to my belt (and lose them more often) to make room for one gun, much less 2. If you are worried about such things, better be a black belt. I say that because your need for less-than-lethal force, or innocents in the way, or too sudden attack (to ccw draw, especially) is many times more likely to be the case than needing another gun.

 

[gym]

A well placed edged weapon is sometimes easier to hide and reach when rolling in the dirt with a suspect. They are flat and can be hidden far easier than a pistol. I am not saying not to carry a 2nd or 3d gun, just to add a well placed knife.
There are those that even strap to your forearm, in a really life and death struggle, pulling out a double edged dagger or a krydex "t" shaped dagger from around the neck, may save your life if being strangled by a monster.

 

[GRIZ22]

In most jurisdictions if you are justified in using a knife to defend yourself you are also justified in using a gun. Regardless of what some may think they are capable of, there are a lot more people who know how to use a gun than proficient knife fighters.

 

[henschman]

If someone can come up with a way for me to carry my full size .40 IWB and actually conceal it effectively, other than SOB, I am open to ideas... but if I carry it out at 4:00, the grip protrudes quite conspicuously, whereas with SOB carry, it disappears.

I also sometimes carry a Kahr CM9 in a pocket holster. Sometimes I carry both it and the M&P40. Pretty hard to grab a pocket carried gun from somebody... plus you have to know it's there. I agree with carrying a knife too... I recently got a Cold Steel punch dagger like was mentioned above with the T handle. It would be great for cutting somebody off your gun. I already broke the plastic belt clip it came with though, so I will probably have to get another sheath made.

 

[torqem]

if you have an arm "free" to grab anything, when you are being strangled, I suggest that you not waste time trying to draw anything, but rather grab something on him, twist and yank. It's faster and more likely to get done than fumbling for a weapon. At the point of being beaten/strangled, you've already messed up and been too slow to access/use a weapon, and now that you're almost dead, you're going to manage it? Not really.

 

[David E]

I learned that any sidearm I carried was a far greater threat to me than to anyone I came into contact with day in and day out.

One wonders how, given your alleged military and LE background, you learned to fear your own gun. Operator error?

 

[2wheels]

Carrying a backup gun is a long and time honored tactic, especially among people like cops. I think it has been proven by now that when done right, carrying a backup gun offers more advantages than disadvantages.

If anything, the OPs example illustrates why some choose to carry a second gun. If (God forbid) you do lose control of your primary handgun, you've got a secondary that you can continue the fight with.

 

[lemaymiami]

David, most LE outfits have "ride along" programs that allow citizens to observe for a shift and learn a bit about how policing is actually done. I recommend it to anyone that wants to learn how things actually go on the street. In a 22 year career I found that on too many occasions I was involved in physically controlling a distraught, highly emotional, at times downright crazy individual. When you're rolling around on the ground and you're the only one with a gun -you'd better be worried about controlling your weapon at all times.... The stats most cops live with are the number of cops killed with their own weapons (if I remember correctly it averaged out at around 30 to 40% in the published FBI stats that we based our training on year after year).

That's why I said what I did about carrying a second gun. At times it's hard enough to control/retain one sidearm..... Don't misunderstand, you could go months without having to get down and dirty with a problem on the street but when it happened it was usually with very little warning and no time at all to prepare for the reality you found yourself in (and I never worked in any really bad areas...). Down here in south Florida there was one particular incident where an unarmed man successfully killed three officers in a struggle after getting his hands on one of their sidearms.... You can bet that it's a possibility wherever you are.

I know that a number of folks carry a second weapon - what I described is my take on it. You'll have to decide for yourself what's appropriate - but for most that carry they have little idea of just how quickly a physical confrontation can turn ugly. When that happens your own weapon is a very real liability.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is 'two guns' carry really tactical?

I am not sure what this has to do with the rest of the OP. What does it matter if it is considered tactical or not?

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Just had to reassess 'two guns' carry after a pal got into a tussle and one of his guns was yanked (SOB carry) by one of the attackers. Apparently it would be extremely difficult to 'fight to retain' both guns in a physical tussle.

So there was a situation where two guns might be a problem and so now this is why you think two guns may not be tactical? By the same logic, if there is a situation where one gun may be a problem, then it would not be tactical either, right? Eventually, you rule out everything as being tactical because it may not be a perfect match for all situations.

Maybe the problem here isn't two gun carry but SOB carry. Did you think of that?

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun. Could come across as a 'plant' especially if eye-witnesses namely his cronies testifies that he was not armed.

Cops have to deal with this.

Maybe better to go with a high quality gun and train our nails off. Hmmh..what do you think?

While always a good choice, far too many people fear carrying high quality guns or expensive guns because they don't want to lose a good or expensive gun to the cops after a shooting. Second, only a small percentage of folks shoot regularly. Only a tiny percentage of folks get actual training beyond their CCW license/permit course. Even a smaller percentage "train" regularly and even less train their nails off.