Is 'two guns' carry really tactical?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lemaymiami-

I was a cop for seven years and wrestled with the cousins of the guys you wrestled with.

The duty gun is exposed, thereby creating a focal point for the bad guy. Level III+ security holsters were far and few between back then, so I had to rely more on situational awareness and weapon retention techniques.

My backup gun was concealed, known only to me. IF someone defeated the weapong retention holster and techniques, I'd immediately go to the backup instead of being at the mercy of the now-armed bad guy.

The stat I recall is 20% of cops shot are shot with their own gun. It doesn't say how many died, just shot. But most of those 20%.......shot themselves.

I bet none of those three unfortunate cops carried a backup gun. Too bad, it might've saved one or all three.
 
Last edited:
Just had to reassess 'two guns' carry after a pal got into a tussle and one of his guns was yanked (SOB carry) by one of the attackers. Apparently it would be extremely difficult to 'fight to retain' both guns in a physical tussle.

It would kinda be a legal nightmare too explaining shooting a man who had your gun. Could come across as a 'plant' especially if eye-witnesses namely his cronies testifies that he was not armed.

Maybe better to go with a high quality gun and train our nails off. Hmmh..what do you think?

SOB carry is not very "tactical." I hope all felons I encounter in the future (I wear a badge) are carrying 0400 to 0800, because they must put their arms most of the way into an arm-lock to reach their weapons, and even if I am not close enough to finish applying that arm lock, they are certainly making their draw-strokes obvious.

Regarding legal nightmares, Step One is to prevail on the street. Part of prevailing on the street is to avoid being in places where bad guys and their cronies are the norm, if at all possible. (Obviously, not all of us have that choice, as much as we would like.)

If "plant" refers to a "throw-down" gun, well, if I have purchased a gun from a licensed dealer, and/or fired a "qual" with a gun, for the record, it is forever linked to me, so opposing counsel would have to allege that I willingly armed an opponent with a deadly weapon, in order to then "defend" myself. (A person is still a danger, even though "down.")

We must be responsible for the security of every weapon we carry, so I do not advocate or recommend multiple firearms. This is a very individual choice.

I do tend to carry multiple handguns. One reason is because a weapon can break; one of my duty sixguns sustained a broken mainspring, back in the 1980s, and I have been rather religious about second guns since that day.

A second reason I carry multiple handguns is because I am fairly ambidextrous, with my left hand being better with single-action and "safe-action" triggers, while my right hand/arm are a bit better with long-stroke DA and with the dynamics of the draw; left-handed, but right-armed, more or less. It just seems natural, to me, to have a weapon available to each hand.

A third reason to carry multiple weapons is because I can carry legally in places where my wife cannot. One of the guns on my person might well be her gun, or one of mine with which she is familiar. Even if she can carry legally, women's clothing does not always conceal handguns very well, whereas I tend to wear sturdy belts and substantial cover garments.

A fourth reason to carry two guns is balance. The couple of times I really tweaked my lower back, I found it much less painful to carry a balanced load of one snubby on each side.

Then, there is the NY reload, a term first popularized, IIRC, by a Mas Ayoob article on the late, great NYPD gunfighter Jim Cirillo. In an environment where armed thugs run in groups, the ability to present another weapon, rather than call time-out to reload, seems a good idea. FWIW, Texas Rangers were carrying multiple revolvers in the days of the Republic of Texas, and have been known to maintain that habit with autos, so this was not an invention of NY LEOs, but an example of great minds thinking alike.

In my case, with long but narrow hands, skinny medium-to-short fingers, and rather short thumbs, snubbies fit me rather well. (I can get all of my fingers on the grip of an SP101.) If any weapon can easily be carried in multiples, it is snubbies, and they benefit the most from the NY reload concept, due to low ammo capacity in the cylinder, and a shorter ejector rod that can potentially complicate a clean ejection.

Back to weapon retention; ideally, one should be able to defend both the primary and back-up from a gun-grab attempt. This contra-indicates carrying on the belt on opposite sides, or spaced too-widely apart. Fairly compact weapons can be carried with one just behind the point of the hip, and the second a bit forward of the hip, either "appendix" or cross-draw. Some carry right and left AIWB, which is still close enough for one forearm to provide some level of coverage. I have tried all three of these, over time, over three decades of carrying.

Recently, I have another reason to carry a second gun, as arthritis in my right hand and wrist has caused a change in my training emphasis, and a move to gentler-recoiling 9mm Glocks. (I still carry .40 at work; 9mm has been considered by the chief, but not yet OK'ed.) With my left hand becoming my "primary" hand, but three decades of habitually reaching for 0300 in an emergency, I am tending to carry two equivalent weapons, concealed at belt level, on my own time, while still carrying my primary duty pistol at 0300 while at work, in the twilight of my career. (I am trying to postpone a total transition until I either retire, or take a long vacation to practice thousands of lefty draws with a "blue" gun.)

On training one's nails off, well, yes, train hard, regardless of whether one carries a second weapon!
 
I think a better plan would be to work on keeping the firearm that you have with better holster, better carry position, better retention training, rather than surrendering to the idea that you will lose your firearm. If I were a person with a occupational duty to protect or to confront the badguys I would have a backupgun but not as a private citizen and for the same reason that I don't go walking around in level III armor.
 
I carried two firearms for part of my civilian carry experience, and like everything it has its benefits and drawbacks. Benefit wise I never felt under gunned when I had to visit shady areas of the state, something my job at the time required frequently. Second if I were out around with the wife and she was unarmed (happens more than me being unarmed) I could hand her my backup pistol, a firearm she was familiar with.

Downsides mostly have been mentioned. Higher retention on at least one of the firearms. I carried my backup pistol in an ankle holster with a thumb strap, something I would never do with a primary. But the location on the ankle made it more likely to fall out, so the retention strap was needed. And the weight. Carrying one firearm with a spare magazine was heavy enough when I started, and now I am carrying a second firearm with its own spare magazine. And on my ankle no less. Definitely took awhile to get used to walking around with the added weight.
 
A answer to the "2 gun carry".

This is a daily pocket load and might answer some who ponder if they are loaded of not.

I change it off as to knives and BUG,but you get the idea.
 

Attachments

  • Droid # 4 004.jpg
    Droid # 4 004.jpg
    71.3 KB · Views: 81
  • Droid # 4 005.jpg
    Droid # 4 005.jpg
    122.2 KB · Views: 72
As a military officer, I always had plenty of other sailors as "backup" when I was armed, in addition to a ship with some larger crew-served "backup" systems. Police officers can often call for backup by other patrol units, air units, SWAT teams, etc., depending on their department and what's available.

CCW holders can call 9-1-1, but they are often their own backup until the cavalry arrives. I carry a smallish "always" gun (9mm) and add backup as permitted by clothing and weather: sometimes a smaller .32 ACP, other times a full-sized 9mm service pistol if I can hide it.

It works for me!
Dirty Bob
 
henschman:
If someone can come up with a way for me to carry my full size .40 IWB and actually conceal it effectively, other than SOB, I am open to ideas... but if I carry it out at 4:00, the grip protrudes quite conspicuously, whereas with SOB carry, it disappears.

Have you tried a Milt Sparks Versa-Max II? The offset straps reduce the overall thickness of the holster, evenly distribute the weight of the pistol, and tuck the pistol into the body. I carry just between 3 & 4, and can easily and comfortably conceal a full-size 1911 or S&W 1006.

Likewise, I have also carried SOB, and found it to be extremely comfortable. Unlike most, I used a left-handed, IWB holster, yes, causing me to "flash" myself when drawing; to me, it is not an issue.

Sam
 
I also sometimes carry a Kahr CM9 in a pocket holster. Sometimes I carry both it and the M&P40. Pretty hard to grab a pocket carried gun from somebody... plus you have to know it's there. I agree with carrying a knife too... I recently got a Cold Steel punch dagger like was mentioned above with the T handle. It would be great for cutting somebody off your gun. I already broke the plastic belt clip it came with though, so I will probably have to get another sheath made.

ECQC puts it all together...all the shooting and combatives. Unfortunately, as soon as combatives occur, they often figure out where your stuff is. They'll feel it as you fight them on the ground.

If someone can come up with a way for me to carry my full size .40 IWB and actually conceal it effectively, other than SOB, I am open to ideas... but if I carry it out at 4:00, the grip protrudes quite conspicuously, whereas with SOB carry, it disappears.

SOB carry is bad for the back. Go attend SouthNarc's ECQC course, but don't use that holster in class or you will have a damaged spine.

1) Get a gun belt if you do not have one. It should be 1 1/2" wide and have two pieces of leather. Comp-Tac offers their kydex reinforced belt and I find it to be very good. As someone mentioned before, a split loop holster reduces the overall width of the rig.

2) The holster must have forward cant. I can hide a SIG P220 with extended base plate on the mag with sufficient forward cant. Look for 20-25 degrees of cant. I hacked my Milt Sparks Versa Max 2 with a rubber strap from knifekits.com (or off a Blade-Tech holster). This significantly increases cant.

3) Wear shirts that are cut vertically straight. Tapered shirts will show everything. Another trick is to wear a t-shirt under the primary shirt and cover the gun with both. This does quite a bit to reduce printing.
 

Attachments

  • SIG-VM2.jpg
    SIG-VM2.jpg
    124 KB · Views: 43
I always carry two, a 640 in the right pants pocket, a NAA in the left under the wallet. I roll around under trailers all day tying down sheds, leveling sheds and I've never had a gun fall out. The best gun to carry is the one you will carry, and front pocket carry is the safest, easiest, fastest and most comfortable from all the other concealed methods available. I been carrying for 34 years, uniform carry, unconcealed carry and for the last 16 years concealed only. Pocket carry may not be sexy or tacticool but most Old West Lawmen actually pocket carried when Bollywood would have you believe they holster carried. I think SOB carry was first popularized by actor Don Johnson in that Miami detective show.
 
I have never understood SOB carry.

  • Your gun is more accessible to the bad guy than it is to you.
  • You can't sit comfortably in a car or in any chair with a backrest.
  • If you fall on your back, you have an increased risk of spine damage.
IMO, the best BUG carry method is pocket carry. Concealed is concealed.
 
Personally I carry a full frame 1911 as a primary, and a 642 airweight in a coat pocket for winter months. The 642 gets put in a handy place in the truck because I can get to it quicker than my primary when driving.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top