Issue with FL die and M1

[hans4811]

Need some help here...

Trying to setup my new RCBS FL sizing X-Die for my M1 Garand.

Here's how I do it on my Garand.

Measuring fired brass is useless because it's stretched a little long and won't fit back in the chamber.

I take the bolt out, pop out the ejector and springs and firing pin and just set the extractor back in (to help pull the cases back out after testing).

I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Headspace gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps.

I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases.

I then intended to adjust my die so that the shoulder ends up about 0.003 shorter than the longest case that closes the bolt completely. I do all of this simply for longer case life, since I highly doubt that the accuracy difference is enough to notice.

But here's the thing, when I finally get the bolt to close on the resized case, it's now below the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gauge, well below it , by about .003 thousands. The distance from the top of the max step to the minimum step is .006 thousands. My case is .003 thousands below that, meaning when I take a measurement, it's .009 thousands below the max step.

So if I size it to just the minimum Sammi spec, which is the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gage, then the bolt won't close.

1.9285 (bolt closes)
+.003
--------
1.9315 (bolt now does NOT close) - this is also the minimum step on the Wilson case gage.

What the heck ?? Do I just resize below the minimum step on the Wilson gage which is below the minimum Sammi spec ?

What am I missing here....

ps. this is HXP brass once fired from my M1. Length of case is below max, crimp has been removed so the little 'tabs' don't mess up any measurement.

Thanks for any help.
Ken

 

[243winxb]

when I finally get the bolt to close on the resized case

The extractor may need to be removed to get a correct reading. Same as when using go-no go-field headspace gauges

 

[Walkalong]

Yep. Try that to make sure, but if your measurements are right, and your gauge is in spec, your chamber is tight. That is not necessarily bad, you just have to size to it. Same as if the chamber was loose. It can still be safe to shoot if you size the brass to it and not the gauge.

Welcome to THR

 

[dmazur]

I do all of this simply for longer case life, since I highly doubt that the accuracy difference is enough to notice.

I have less than a thousand rounds through my Garand, so I'm not an expert on this. However, I believe I've learned a few important things.

I have a Criterion barrel with a "tight" chamber. I have to FL size to SAAMI minimum to get chambering without any drag. I think I'm getting 0.004" of stretch on each firing, from measurements made on a cartridge headspace gauge.

I'm worried more about slamfires than brass life, so I reload 4 times and replace the brass.

The Garand isn't a bolt rifle, and many reloading practices such as neck only resizing (which I'm aware wasn't mentioned in this thread) can lead to trouble.

 

[hans4811]

Okay, I didn't do that, removing the extractor I mean. I'll try that and see if that makes a difference.

Here's another observance....I tried loading into the chamber some loaded rounds (with the extractor still on) and even these weren't allowing the bolt to close with a 'click'. Out of one clip, I checked all 8 rounds, and only one fit to where the bolt closed....hmmmm.

 

[243winxb]

I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases.

When the bolt closes, you have the correct setting on the die. Seems the die knows what the correct headspace is when adjusted as per instructions. The firearms chamber is the best gauge.

 

[hans4811]

Okay, removed the extractor and the loaded rounds still don't fit..Here's some shots of what I mean...This is the only round of 8 that closed..

Here's the worst offender...

Here's the average one ....

This doesn't look safe, whatya think ?

 

[hans4811]

Here's the worst offender...(sorry for the crappy camera)



Here's about average from the clip...



Here's the only one that closed from the clip...



When I put in one of the one's that I resized, that's at the minimum step of the Wilson case gage, it's a little better than the pic of the average one, but still doesn't close with a 'click'.

 

[243winxb]

What do you get when you adjust your FLRS die down that it touches the shell holder, plus an extra 1/8 turn down of the die, so the press cams over? What brand of dies are you using? Standard dies or Small base dies?

 

[hans4811]

When the bolt closes, you have the correct setting on the die. Seems the die knows what the correct headspace is when adjusted as per instructions.

243, I think you missed my point....even though the bolt closes, it is below the minimum step (by .003 thousands) of the Wilson case gage.

Plus, I only fired about 60 rounds so far and by looking at how the bolt doesn't even close all the way on the loaded rounds, I think I might have gotten lucky.

 

[hans4811]

What do you get when you adjust your FLRS die down that it touches the shell holder, plus an extra 1/8 turn down of the die, so the press cams over? What brand of dies are you using? Standard dies or Small base dies?

I'm using the standard Full Length RCBS X-die. When I adjust it so that it touches the shellplate, plus an extra 1/8 turn, it sized it to the minimum step of the case gage, but it still won't close the bolt. (with extractor removed now).

I had to adjust it down a little more to get the case fit in the chamber so that the bolt would close, but when I do this then it goes below the minimum step of the Wilson case gage. This is what's got me worried...

 

[243winxb]

As Walkalong has said

your chamber is tight

As long as the bolt locks up/closes correctly, the gage means nothing. Here is a link that might help you. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11470/guntechdetail/Gauging_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL

 

[243winxb]

Shellplates & Bottle Neck Cartridges -Full Length Die Adjustments.

On Shellplates like Dillion uses, the FLRS die is adjusted using a cartridge gage like Wilson or Dillion. Dillion wants you to use a gage because of variations in the shellplates 4 stations. Think of each station as a different shell holder. The difference between stations can vari as much as .009" This will change how much the shoulder is pushed back on sizing,between stations. Plus it can also make the COL, bullet seating depth change at each station, if the FLRS die is making contact with the shellplate. Dillon reply by email >

550 plate dimensions should be .250? thick top to bottom, .132” +/- .005” from underside of the shellplate to top recess where the die contacts.

Measure you shellplates using one of these methods.

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[hans4811]

Good info 243, similiar to what I do here in this article...
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2009/02/19/setting-up-a-full-length-sizing-die/

What your article does with the feeler gauges, I do the same only using the Sinclair die shims....

...but, the problem isn't really the full length resizing now, I think it's more in my chamber. Those attached pictures aren't using my resized cases.....those were taken with the loaded HXP Greek ammo I got from CMP. So the bolt isn't even closing on the loaded ammo !!

I agree with you in that I can resize the fired brass to fit my chamber and forget what the Wilson case gage is telling me. But the fact that my bolt isn't closing on loaded ammo causes me to pause.

On a side note to your mentioning of the shellplate...that is awesome, never thought of that as I'm using a Hornady LNL AP that uses a shellplate also. THIS would explain why whenver I load for my .40S&W, COL is sometimes way out of wack. Not so much on my .45ACP, but definitely noticable on my 40 rounds. Thanks for that tidbit...gonna go measure my shellplate now ! (And it makes me want to go buy that Forster Co-ax press for my M1)

 

[243winxb]

If the rifle will not chamber factory ammo, sure is a problem. Time for a trip to the gun smith i would guess.