It's ok, hospitals are "gun free zones"!

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Hyaloid

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http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/112106/met_6370788.shtml

Mother of 2 killed in hospital shooting


Brenda Coney, 46, is charged with fatally shooting the manager of the pharmacy at Shands Jacksonville.


By BRIDGET MURPHY, The Times-Union


Francina Coney kept saying the word again and again, like maybe then it wouldn't be true.


"We never thought she would do something like this. Never. Never. Never. ..."

A few hours after police said her stepdaughter Brenda Coney, 46, opened fire inside Shands Jacksonville hospital and shot a pharmacy manager to death Monday, the woman was still trying to figure out what happened to the loved one she said suffers from mental health problems.

"She's supposed to take something," Francina Coney said about a medication her stepdaughter was prescribed. "I don't know whether she's taking it or not."

What she did take, according to the murder charge police booked her into jail on, was the life of a 37-year-old pregnant wife and mother of two who had been working in the hospital's pharmacy since 2002.

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About 9 a.m., Shands pharmacy manager Shannon McCants tried to assist Coney after she had a disagreement with another pharmacist. But Coney opened fire, shooting McCants from about 10 feet away.

Pharmacy patient Stacey Richey, 39, was among those who hit the floor when the shooting started.

"The lady was arguing with the pharmacist and she asked for the manager. She got in the wrong line from what I gather. The manager said 'I'm not going to argue with you. Then boom! boom!' "

Richey said she heard four or five gunshots before she and a few dozen others in the first-floor pharmacy began sprinting for the door.

"It was mass chaos. Everybody was screaming, hollering, running, tripping, falling. I'm not the only one that got trampled."

Richey made it to the elevator, pushed a woman who was getting out back inside it and hit the button for the fifth floor.

Later, Richey said the nurse who was first to help McCants told her the woman was shot in the head and chest.

Police said Coney admitted shooting the victim multiple times.

Hospital pharmacy patient Jackie Jemison, 55, was standing outside the hospital's door when she heard five gunshots and then saw a woman calmly walk outside with a gun in her hand and over to her red Dodge Neon.

"She looked kind of spaced out. She had the gun in her hand," Jemison said. "She just dropped it and police took her into custody."

Jemison said she heard the shooter came to the hospital on Friday and her medication wasn't ready. Police didn't confirm that, and hospital officials wouldn't comment on what they called an ongoing investigation.

"It's bad enough you have to wait two or three hours to get your prescription filled," Jemison said. "I'm stressed out. I wasn't even in the door and heard the shots and I was scared to death."

The victim's husband, Derrick McCants, and the family's pastor, the Rev. Michael Mitchell of St. Stephen AME Church, came to the hospital as a family friend, the Rev. Mark Griffin, waited outside for support.

"If it could happen at Shands at nine o'clock in the morning it could happen anywhere," Griffin said of the violence. "...We're praying right here on the grounds that God will perform a miracle."

But at 11:30 a.m., police said outside the hospital that McCants had died.

Griffin said he would grieve for a woman he called a wonderful young lady and a good mother and wife. A few weeks ago, the McCants couple, the parents of a 7-year-old boy and 7-month-old daughter, found out they'd be parents again next year.

Their celebration of the Thanksgiving holiday was supposed to start Monday night after Shannon McCants worked her last shift before vacation. The family was heading to the couple's hometown of Mobile, Ala., where the husband and wife of 11 years first became sweethearts in high school before attending Florida A&M University together.

"To think they have to go through the holidays without her," said Griffin.

Griffin, pastor at Wayman Chapel AME Church, helped organize the buybacks of 800 guns this year, as the city's murder rate continues on a pace for Jacksonville to stay Florida's per-capita murder capital.

"A shooting like this puts us right back on the map," he said of the death of McCants, who was also a close friend of his wife.

Griffin's fellow pastor, Mitchell, said Monday night that Derrick McCants was too distraught to speak about losing his spouse.

"I think the support of family and friends has helped him make it through the day. Right now he's in shock. He can't believe it happened," Mitchell said.

Mitchell was with the husband when doctors took Shannon McCants into the operating room.

"There was a bullet in the head the CAT scan revealed. ... They believed that it would take a miracle in order to get her through," Mitchell said.

The shooting came the day after the McCants couple worshipped with fellow congregants at St. Stephen AME Church downtown, where Shannon McCants worked with youths as a member of the women's ministry.

"If you wanted to model a life after someone, Shannon was that woman," Mitchell said.

As part of Sunday's service, the couple also celebrated their son's scholastic achievement after his recent honor roll recognition, their pastor said.

Shands officials said grief counselors were on hand to help McCants' colleagues after the shooting. The pharmacy closed for the day, but authorities didn't evacuate the hospital.

The hospital employs about 100 security guards, who don't carry guns, and hires off-duty police officers for more safety. The Jacksonville police officer who was working at the middle school across from the West Eighth Street hospital arrested Coney after responding to a call about the shooting, police said.

Shands Human Resources Vice President Lesli Ward said hospital officials will be re-evaluating security precautions, but that close patient contact is part of health care services.

Ward wouldn't comment on the facts of the incident itself, including what may have sparked the shooting and how many people were in the pharmacy at the time.

Hospital officials also wouldn't say how many security guards or police officers were working at the time, saying it varies from shift to shift. While there are surveillance cameras at undisclosed locations in the facility, hospital officials didn't say if any of the incident was recorded.

The shooting marked Jacksonville's 128th homicide this year, leaving the families of both the victim and suspect without answers about why such a violent incident happened.

The only prior arrest history Brenda Coney has in Florida is for a 1986 trespassing charge, according to state records. The woman spent Sunday helping take care of her 84-year-old father, who she brought shopping and to the doctor all the time, Francina Coney said.

"We didn't think she had a gun," the woman said of her stepdaughter. "... I have to find out the truth because this doesn't sound like the Brenda I know."

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My girlfrend works in a ER of a 170 bed hospital. Officially it is a " gun free zone." In reality damn near everybody carries. There are also alarms under EVERY desk.
 
Very sad for the victim's family and also the mentally-ill shooter's family.

The general public doesn't see incidents like this as failures of gun-free zones, only as the need for more gun control.

K
 
My wife had major surgery yesterday (she is doing great), and I didn't notice any signs on the hospital doors. As a result, my Kahr PM9 was with me the whole day (and will be today as well).
 
Do any of you think, from the sound of the way things went down, that a CCW would have helped?

Sounds to me like the manager was pretty much tossing this off as an unwinnable confrontation with an irate customer and the customer responded by pulling a gun without warning and shooting the manager. The presence of a CCW in that situation is dubious at best, since it's likely that the customer would have easily gotten the first shot or two off before the manager or any other customer could react.

A CCW might have given the manager a fighting chance (and I'd want that chance myself, thankyouverymuch) but it's not as if the 'gun free zone' was a death sentence that would have otherwise been averted.

Sometimes life just sucks. :(
 
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Having a CHL might have changed how the manager reacted to the irate customer. A pistol might not have saved her once the shooting started, but it could have saved her by causing her to react in a more peaceable, less confrontational manner. I know I tend to be more cognizant of my own reactions to others when I carry.

As for carry in hospitals, it is now legal in TX, provided the proper 30-06 signage is NOT present.
 
Honestly, I'm not sure if a CCW would have helped. It sounds like the woman just grabbed her gun and started shooting with no warning. The one thing that might have helped (at first) would have been diving for cover the moment the woman pulled her weapon, but it's hard to say.

It's a tragedy, and my heart goes out to the family. My wife is a pharmacist, and this sort of thing is my biggest worry- you get all kinds of idiots angry about how the pharmacy workers aren't willing to violate the law and their licenses in order to get them more drugs.
 
Nice side effect of living in NYS

That is one side effect of living in New York. Sure it's hard to get a CCW permit. But the fact is that it's so rare and unknown around here, that even anti-gun people don't think to put "No Weapons" signs up. I have never seen one on a business, hospital, etc. ever.
 
that even anti-gun people don't think to put "No Weapons" signs up.
A sign wouldn't have mattered. Someone who is willing to shoot someone in the face over a prescription isn't going to be stopped by a sign. Criminals and crazy people don't obey signs, instruction, or laws. Until people start recognizing this all the regulation in the world will only restrain those you don't have to worry about.
 
My wife had major surgery yesterday (she is doing great), and I didn't notice any signs on the hospital doors. As a result, my Kahr PM9 was with me the whole day (and will be today as well).

Good for you, God Bless your behavior. (wish more Americans had this common sense with set btwn their legs like you) I hope your wife is doing fine!!
 
This article makes me sad on so many levels.

This will, of course, be turned into another "evil guns" instance by the anti's, the pro gun people will fight back, and in the ensuing scuffle the -true- issue stands a good chance of becoming lost. To put it simply, this instance was a mental health issue. What the woman used to assult and kill isn't really as important as how and why she was able to do so. Another aspect of the issue that should be addressed is the denial state of the parents ("we never thought she'd do something like this").

Wow, if that quote is accurate then it's very telling because it says they did think she'd do -something-.

As to the CCW question, I don't think other armed people would have made a difference in this case. It sounds like it was too focused and happened too fast for anyone to intervene. Now had the woman gone on to terrorize the rest of the hospital, then having other armed citizens might have been beneficial.
 
Erebus said:
A sign wouldn't have mattered. Someone who is willing to shoot someone in the face over a prescription isn't going to be stopped by a sign. Criminals and crazy people don't obey signs, instruction, or laws. Until people start recognizing this all the regulation in the world will only restrain those you don't have to worry about.

I totally agree with that. My post was more along the lines of "That's ONE nice thing about NY, once you actually GET your CCW, there's few places to worry about not being able to take it."
 
It sounds like it was too focused and happened too fast for anyone to intervene.
I agree if the person shot in the head and chest didn't have time to run than it's almost assured that no one would have had time to recognize what was happening, draw, aim, and fire.
 
Wouldn't have made a difference. Wouldn't have made a difference?!?

McCant might have died in any case. But if she or an alert bystander had a firearm and the will to use it, maybe she would have lived. As it was, she had no chance at all.

And people, the only thing that stopped this shooting from turning into a mass slaughter was ... nothing. If the EDP had decided to kill everyone present, it would have been like shooting frogs in a barrel.

Relying on the mercy of the merciless is fundamentally a bad plan.

pax
 
maybe she would have lived
Big Maybe - Big enough I wouldn't try and use that argument as justification for allowing people to carry in a hospital.

Careful what you use as an example it can be turned against you. This particular incident isn't a good example of how a CCW could have changed things.

An Anti could turn it this way:
I just can't see it making a difference. A gun drawn and fired into someone's head and chest at what was probably point blank range leaves little time for someone to react. She didn't go on to kill others so therefore someone else being armed could have killed the shooter or worse caused a shootout between the shooter and the CCWer, possibly causing other innocent people to get killed. The presence of another gun would have only made the situation worse.

The odds of someone doing anything prior to the first shot being fired is slim at best.
 
I'm having a hard time believing that this woman was shot in the HOSPITAL pharmacy. Perhaps the gift shop out front... I've worked in health care for ten years, and it is THE hardest place to find, and without doubt THE most inaccessible place in the hospital. Banks have vaults, hospitals have pharmacies. bulletproof glass, keyed entry, only authorized personel, etc. I wish they'd give more detail....
 
This is a great example of how criminals and crazys don't obey laws(like every bank robbery, school shooting, etc) but not a good example of how a gun could have made a difference.
 
Are hospitals in Florida truly gun free zones? I don't recall seeing that when I applied for my Florida permit. Of course If I actually go to Florida anytime soon, I would of course "bone-up" on the off-limits places.
 
AFAIK, there's nothing in FL Statutes that bans guns in hospitals. I'm not sure if we have any kind of laws about buildings being posted as "no gun zones". As far as I know, even if a building is posted, the most they can do is ask you to leave, and if you refuse, call a cop.

Of course, there's usually no shortage of cops in hospitals.

Rem700SD... Most of the hospitals that cater primarily to indigent or Medicaid patients have on-site pharmacies where patients that have been released can get prescriptions filled for free (or at low cost). We're not talking about the pharmacy where the staff get their meds for in-house patients.
 
ceetee;

Sometimes those pharmacies are one and the same. My wife did a rotation (when finishing up pharmacy school) at a local one here (affiliated with a MAJOR St. Louis hospital). They catered not only to the employees of the hospital and its affiliates, but also to people who had just been discharged. There really isn't any reason why a person couldn't get a regular script filled there as well (other than convenience- it was a massively busy place, and the wait time was often very long). It really depends on how the hospital in question does things. The article also does not state if this pharmacy was an outpatient pharmacy or an inpatient one (which would not cater to anybody who is not in a hospital bed), but the inpatient pharmacies usually have much greater security.

It seems as prescription drug abuse becomes more and more popular, violence is going to occur against pharmacy workers. The shame of it is, this sort of abuse is often winked at by society, and due to privacy laws, it has to be a very blatant abuse (such as reselling the drugs) in order for law enforcement agencies to do anything about it.
 
My apologies, I am not sure if hospitals are in fact "gun free zones" in Florida.

Most hospitals where I live (Tennessee) are posted and prohibit concealed carry. My point in posting this article wasn't necessarily to showcase an argument for the victim to be carrying, but rather to showcase the argument that criminals don't follow the law by definition and by their nature, and should this have occurred in a hospital while I was in it, I would sure like to be carrying in case the person decided they felt like taking more innocent lives.
 
while it may not be a good example of how a ccw may have changed things, the point here is that the no gun sign certainly didn't change things either.
 
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