I've got a hankerin'

[thefitzvh]

For some new guns... I want a rifle and revolver, so I decided to put 'em here, instead of in either of those forums.

First, the two guns I'm looking at, then i'll tell ya what my application is...

I'd like opinions on my choices...

First, I want a Puma model 92, blued finish, in .454 casull. Next, a Beretta stampede in .45 Colt.

Application: cuz they're damn cool! I have no real "need" for either of these guns, but the way I'm justifying it is that I MAY use them for hunting (don't think I actually will, although the stampede might be my "Holy crap, I'm in the desert and a coyote is after me" gun.

Anyways, when formulating responses, be reminded that my application is pure fun and asthetics. I wanna geta general idea of quality of these two pieces.

The stampede would be the delux model with the wood grip, not that cheesy looking plastic. Blued, of course.

Thanks in advance.
James

 

[thefitzvh]

Bump?

Anyone have any info on how good these two guns are?

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

I just saw a stainless Puma in .454 this weekend, looks pretty nice. The rifle seems a little too short to me, but I'm used to the old Winchester 94. It sure would've made a nice combo with the .454 Super Redhawk I saw, too...

My only question is whether the Puma will feed .45 Colt as well, or just .454?

I've heard of some .357 Magnum rifles that would feed .38 Special, and some that wouldn't. Anybody have any experience with these lever rifles?

 

[thefitzvh]

i was TOLD by the salesman that it did in fact shoot .45 colt. This particular salesman hadn't led me wrong before, so I believe him. I was hoping someone on the board owned one and could verify.

I read some of Jim's revo. threads, and I think the stampede is DEF the one i'm gonna get.

James

 

[Domino]

Don't know about the Puma or the stampede but for .45 colt I would get a Ruger Blackhawk. tough as nails, just make sure you get the steel grip frame and not the aluminum one.

 

[thefitzvh]

I like the "look " of the beretta. The blackhawk is nice, but I like the faux case finish on the stampede.

Anyone know of a gun in that caliber that has a real color case finish?

 

[Jim March]

Wheelgun:

I'm shopping for about the same thing. Picking between the Stampede and the Ruger New Vaquero will be *nasty*. Basically, the two are the same size, same heft, similar feel, both based strongly on the Colt SAA, both with transfer bars. Taurus is threatening to provide yet another choice along the same lines but I suspect the Ruger and Beretta will be the better options.

Between the two? Gawd. The Ruger uses coil springs, Beretta uses flat. Slight nod to Ruger there. Cosmetics, I think Beretta has it. The Ruger grip frame interface is compatible with all current Ruger SAs so there's some flexibility there - you could "Bisleyize" it, or go bird's head, or ???.

On the flip side, I *like* Beretta's grip frame on the Stampede Marshall. And I suspect that "Lightning style" grip frame is the same one that can be bought out of the Cimmaron catalog and adapted to the longer-barrel Stampedes. Check the Cimmaron parts and price pages - ain't a lot of money.

Gawd.

Either can shoot "45LC combat loads" like the Speer Gold Dot 250 @ 875fps or so, or the Cor-Bon 200 @ 1,100. They can NOT take "45LC+P". They'd make OK woods carry guns if the threat was cougar at the worst (or hoomans of course ).

Dunno which I'll get yet. Seriously. No clue. Handled a pair of delux Stampedes recently and was *very* impressed...good fit and finish, tight, small gap, good timing. But there are supposedly complaints about how well they handle fast cocking; I'm monitoring the sassnet.org forums on that subject. Apparantly the gun is holding the bolt up until it's ready to drop it into the cylinder notches, to avoid "ringing"...but that has to be timed REAL well to work reliably. (Colt doesn't always get it right on a $1,500+ real SAA.) May be a bit ambitious for the price range. Ruger doesn't horse around, they just drag the bolt along, say "yup, they ring, but they don't skip neither!" .

------------

I know less about leverguns. I understand that in some cases, if a levergun feeds, say, 357Mag OK, it could choke on 38Spl. Ditto the 44Spl/44Mag, 45LC/454 combinations. There are however levergun-specialist gunsmiths who can clean up this issue and get both to work right if there are issues; start here:

http://leverguns.com/

...or the gunsmith discussion areas of http://www.sixgunner.com

...for more info.

 

[thefitzvh]

As usual, a wealth of info...

I'll talk to a smith before I make my purchase.

 

[Jim March]

Right, here's the Cimarron "Thunderer", which is a Cimarron-specced Uberti:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Thun-Light-size-comp.htm

Now here's the Cimarron parts page for the Thunderer:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Parts/model-p.htm

Damn, prices have gone up some. Both halves of the Thunderer grip frame plus the Thunderer wood grips total about $200. Still, not too bad, and I'll betcha good money that'll all fit a Uberti-made Stampede.

A 4.68" barrel Stampede with those grips would just ROCK .

Now, there's a company making that sort of grip frame for New Model Ruger SAs that would fit the New Vaquero. But I keep hearing really bad customer service comments about that supplier . Still, THAT would in my mind be the ultimate.

What else...

Assume Belt Mountain will support the New Vaquero real soon now. So far Belt Mountain has NOT mentioned support for the Stampede. I don't know if the Stampede base pin is the same as a Colt SAA part, the way the Cimarron Model P or its Uberti relatives are. Having a transfer bar the Stampede base pin may be different, doing like Ruger does and putting a spring-loaded tip thing in it to move the transfer bar rearwards while it's moving up so it doesn't ram into the firing pin. OR mebbe they control the transfer bar movement some other way?

Some have been unimpressed with the Stampede transfer bar. I'm not one of them - I think it's a damned good design, myself, kinda narrow but thick and tough and retained in a vertical groove in the hammer more like the FA97 design than the Ruger. I think it's pretty slick. Have heard of zero failure complaints and having seen it, don't expect to hear of any. Dunno if I'd call it "better" than a Ruger but it might be.

 

[thefitzvh]

Thanks a lot jim, i'm gonna look into those grips.

As for the gun, I think i'm gonna go handle the ruger AND the stampede. I already messed with the stampede and the ruger, but not at the same time. I wanna compare it up close. I'm leaning towards the stampede, to be honest, but I suppose i should look at em side by side

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell I'm gonna DO with these two guns though. These would be the first firearms I've purchased (other than C&R) that I don't have a use for.

One possible thing to use it for is an open carry gun (I travel to some open carry places)... after all, it's purdy.

One more thing: I know the transfer bar thing is supposed to make it safe for 6 rounds in it, but would YOU carry it with 6 loaded? Is my waryness to do that founded, or just silly?

As for the levergun, i got some 45 Colt dummy rounds from a friend. I'm gonna take em into the shop today and see if they feed well.

Regards,
James

 

[Jim March]

As for the gun, I think i'm gonna go handle the ruger AND the stampede.

There's a HUGE difference in feel between standard "Vaqueros" built on the same frame as the current Blackhawks/SuperBlackHawks and the "New Vaquero" on a smaller frame.

The latter should be on dealer shelves SOON but ain't there yet I don't think. I hear mid-December being tossed around as a prediction.

The older large-frame Vaqueros are going away, except for the 44Mag flavor will still be the large-frame holdout.

Oh, and there will be a real short run of "50th Aniversary commemorative 357 Blackhawks" with a flattop adjustable sight built on the same SMALLER frame as the "New Vaquero". This will be a lot like the Colt New Frontier 'cept transfer bar, etc.

Anyways. Point is, I don't think you CAN make handling comparisons just yet between the Stampede and New Vaq. Real soon though.

One more thing: I know the transfer bar thing is supposed to make it safe for 6 rounds in it, but would YOU carry it with 6 loaded?

I would carry either the Beretta Stampede or Ruger SA transfer-bar guns six-up without the slightest hesitation. And the German transfer-bar SAs imported by EAA for that matter. There is no penalty for doing so, and it is as safe as carrying any modern DA revolver six-up.

I *would* however run a thorough "checkout" on any gun I planned to carry, including testing the safety...SA or DA.

The *only* good reason I've heard to carry a transfer bar SA five-up is if people own a mixture of transfer-bar guns and NON (made by Colt, or a USFA or an Italian "true SAA clone" or whatever). If you own a mix, you're liable to get your operating drill mixed up between them.

Well, I don't plan on owning a mix, or owning any non-transfer-bar original-pattern SAAs. They're just not what I need.

-----------

Speaking of operating drills: the loading/unloading cycle between the current Ruger SAs and something like a Beretta Stampede is different. The Stampede loads on the half-cock like a Colt. New Model Ruger actions, you leave the hammer down and just open the loading gate. I don't know which drill the "New Vaquero" mid-frame action will use; if similar to the current New Models and you own at least one of those, you might end up wanting to keep exactly the same operating drill across all your SAs, which would be a nod to the New Vaq over a Stampede.

 

[thefitzvh]

I don't *PLAN* on owning any others yet, but who knows. I might decide that single action revolvers are the bee's knees and get a few more. Ya never know.

I felt one of the "old vaqueros" today side by side with the beretta, and I liked both the aesthetics and feel of the beretta better. since my time frame for purchase is looking like january, I should be able to handle the new vaquero before deciding.

Also: What happens if the gun you get from the factory is off on windage or elevation? To the smitty?


James (go ahead and tell me to shaddap any time now! )

 

[Jim March]

Windage can be an issue. If it REALLY is the gun (versus *you*) then yes, a trip back to it's birthing may be necessary unless you're willing to cope yourself.

If you plan on putting better sights on it, such as something dovetailed, you fix the windage that way. I'm twisted enough to be considering that . Otherwise, you "turn the barrel" a bit. This can be complicated depending on where your cylinder gap is to start with, and whether it needs "tightening" a hair or "loosening". If tightening, you run the risk of "shrinking" the barrel bore area where it goes into the frame. You can do this barrel turning yourself, with great care: you need a vice with strong wooden blocks on the barrel, and then a long piece of wood with one end carved rectangular to cleanly fit the frame window with the cylinder pulled out. The long piece is the "wrench" which spins the frame.

If "tightening", find a gunsmith who knows how to do "Taylor Throating" and have it done. That way, any barrel bore compression at that point will be gone. See also:

http://www.alphaprecisioninc.com/revolver/default.htm

...or generally google "taylor throating". There's a Brownell hand reamer for this task that's worth pondering if you REALLY want to go DIY .

Oh yes. Another way of controlling windage is to open up the rear fixed sight just a hair with a very small flat file. By filing only one side, you can deal with minor windage issues cheaply and easily, and often improve the sight picture in the process. My understanding is that this can cope with about 2" worth of windage at 25 yards...more than that, you'd have to hog the rear sight out too much.

------------

Elevation is different. It's *supposed* to shoot a bit low to start. You figure out which load you want to set the gun to, then get the file out - the front is supposed to come a bit too tall. This is a feature, not a bug . It's a normal part of the SA process .