kcshooter
Member
There are plenty of closed backstrap concealment grips.
J Frame Pain Management
- Thread starter Beat-tu
- Start date
- Status
Beat-tu
Member
I guess I didn't specify good enough. My gun in question is a new S&W Bodyguard .38, with the factory closed back strap rubber grip (hard rubber).
Tom
Tom
AK103K
member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 7,610
There are plenty of all sorts of grips available, just not all that many that keep the gun at its smallest, most concealable, and still somewhat shootable.
My point here is, if its not shootable in that configuration, then something else may be more suitable. Same goes for anything too, not just J frames. I never got the point of putting the mag extensions, etc, on the small autos.
oneounceload
member
First thing - do NOT ignore that pain - you can have some debilitating nerve or bone damage and shooting more can lead to more serious issues. My 642 has been replaced by a 9mm Kahr - I can shoot more rounds per session and without the pain. Otherwise, would should about half a box per trip
jfh
Member.
Carry-ers need to practice a lot more than we do.
You can read more about my background on j-frame hand conditioning by chasing down older threads of mine over in the reloading forum--but I am going to suggest that you practice--a lot.
When I did that some years ago during a "short-barrel reloading" project I did, I shot about 25,000 rounds over a two-year period. About 22,000 rounds were in a 640, an M&P340, a 442, a 360; another 3,000 rounds or so were in a 3" 60 and a 4" 686. About 10% were standard-pressure 38s; about 75% were 38+P/38-CIP pressures, perhaps 10% were moderate 357 loads, and 5% were full-power 357s (Think 1150 fps for a 158-gr. bullet out of the 640)
When I started, five standard pressure Federal 125-gr PD loads in the M&P340 made my hand numb and the web bruised. After 6000 rounds or so, I could shoot a cylinder full of BB20A loads (38 Spl 'high pressure' 158-gr, 1000fps 2" barrel) from the M&P340 without impossible discomfort. In the course of doing this practice (with incremental loading) I not only built up hand strength, but I actually have a permanent callus and some sort of bone spur on my thumb 'base bone'--down in the pocket. Other calluses diminished, but that one change stayed. And, I find that I still have residual benefit this year, even though I have only shot four times in the last two years because of other health issues.
Like 340PD, I shoot a 640 for 'warmup' and then I transition to my carry gun, a M&P340 with the CT boot-sized grips--the grips with a recoil pocket in the back.
I am finally getting some more range time this year. Even with that serious lapse in practice and conditioning, I have found my hand is still pretty tough: I am not going through the blistering-and-bandaids routine of four years ago. When I was out last week, I shot about 50 rounds of 38-CIP-pressure 'FBI reloads' (a 158-gr running about 860 from 2" barrels) through the 640, about 30 of the GDSB135+P reloads (135-gr. LRN running 870-900) in the 640, and then went to the 340 to shoot another 70 rounds of the GDSB135+P 'replica reload.' My hand was tired, but not torn up, tingling, or cramping. My current issue is arthritis and the loss of right-arm (shooting) strength because of a torn rotator cuff and bone spur/pain issues. Fortunately, the arthritis is not bad in the shooting hand.
My goal is to get back up to being able to shoot two-cylinders, back to back, of a custom 'FBI900' load out of the M&P340. If I can't do that, I'll be satisfied with one--e.g., 5-shots-5-seconds-5,7 yards-5" group--the 'old Fuff regimen.'
You may need to learn to reload to get in a lot of practice (my costs are at most $6.50 / 50 for 158-gr LSWCs loaded to the 38-CIP standard) Meanwhile
I went on more than perhaps I should here--but the point is, even older shooters (I am now 67), if they are not too debilitated by health issues like arthritis, tendonitis, and bone spurs, can get a well-conditioned shooting hand. If you have doubts about doing so, see your doctor and get your hand checked out--but I'll bet you can do it.
And, BTW, learn to reload for an enjoyable aspect to your shooting hobby!
Jim H.
You can read more about my background on j-frame hand conditioning by chasing down older threads of mine over in the reloading forum--but I am going to suggest that you practice--a lot.
When I did that some years ago during a "short-barrel reloading" project I did, I shot about 25,000 rounds over a two-year period. About 22,000 rounds were in a 640, an M&P340, a 442, a 360; another 3,000 rounds or so were in a 3" 60 and a 4" 686. About 10% were standard-pressure 38s; about 75% were 38+P/38-CIP pressures, perhaps 10% were moderate 357 loads, and 5% were full-power 357s (Think 1150 fps for a 158-gr. bullet out of the 640)
When I started, five standard pressure Federal 125-gr PD loads in the M&P340 made my hand numb and the web bruised. After 6000 rounds or so, I could shoot a cylinder full of BB20A loads (38 Spl 'high pressure' 158-gr, 1000fps 2" barrel) from the M&P340 without impossible discomfort. In the course of doing this practice (with incremental loading) I not only built up hand strength, but I actually have a permanent callus and some sort of bone spur on my thumb 'base bone'--down in the pocket. Other calluses diminished, but that one change stayed. And, I find that I still have residual benefit this year, even though I have only shot four times in the last two years because of other health issues.
Like 340PD, I shoot a 640 for 'warmup' and then I transition to my carry gun, a M&P340 with the CT boot-sized grips--the grips with a recoil pocket in the back.
I am finally getting some more range time this year. Even with that serious lapse in practice and conditioning, I have found my hand is still pretty tough: I am not going through the blistering-and-bandaids routine of four years ago. When I was out last week, I shot about 50 rounds of 38-CIP-pressure 'FBI reloads' (a 158-gr running about 860 from 2" barrels) through the 640, about 30 of the GDSB135+P reloads (135-gr. LRN running 870-900) in the 640, and then went to the 340 to shoot another 70 rounds of the GDSB135+P 'replica reload.' My hand was tired, but not torn up, tingling, or cramping. My current issue is arthritis and the loss of right-arm (shooting) strength because of a torn rotator cuff and bone spur/pain issues. Fortunately, the arthritis is not bad in the shooting hand.
My goal is to get back up to being able to shoot two-cylinders, back to back, of a custom 'FBI900' load out of the M&P340. If I can't do that, I'll be satisfied with one--e.g., 5-shots-5-seconds-5,7 yards-5" group--the 'old Fuff regimen.'
You may need to learn to reload to get in a lot of practice (my costs are at most $6.50 / 50 for 158-gr LSWCs loaded to the 38-CIP standard) Meanwhile
- 1. Get a hand 'grip' exerciser and use that a lot.
- 2. Choose a desired carry load and shoot it enough to feel 'familar', if not comfortable with it..
- 3. Shoot a lot--but build up incrementally. As others said, start with DEWC wadcutter target loads if you don't reload.
- 4. Select a practice regimen that is easily repeatable--and build variation into it.
- 5. Ultimately, get familiar with your j-frame so shooting it really is second nature--at least for its intended purpose of a close-up-and personal PD gun; you don't need to practice 25-yard SA shots; practice no SA shots--do all DAO.
I went on more than perhaps I should here--but the point is, even older shooters (I am now 67), if they are not too debilitated by health issues like arthritis, tendonitis, and bone spurs, can get a well-conditioned shooting hand. If you have doubts about doing so, see your doctor and get your hand checked out--but I'll bet you can do it.
And, BTW, learn to reload for an enjoyable aspect to your shooting hobby!
Jim H.
doc2rn
Member
Get ya a Hogue grip to help with the recoil and make it fit your hand. Dont shoot full +P rounds at the range... its just paper! Try some 158gr wad cutters.
wlewisiii
Member
At 49, my J Frame pain management was to sell it for a 2" K frame. It's just enough heavier that, with proper Pachmayr grips, it makes all the difference for me. I can shoot BB FBI loads in a K frame. I can't in a J. Take that as you will.
I second the idea of Hogue rubber grip. I carried a 442-1 for years. The Bantam grip killed me. Replaced with Hogue, it still fit my pocket and considerably reduced discomfort. I shot my 442 a lot. If it is your carry gun you should shoot it a lot. Use some light loads, but remember your life depends in being able to shoot accurately and some else might lose theirs if can't shoot well. Hitting an innocent bystander in a stressful moment is worse than having to deal with than drilling the bad guy. Both are nightmarish.
If your gun is uncomfortable to shoot you will never have confidence in it. And confidence in your defensive weapon is irreplaceable. JMO
If your gun is uncomfortable to shoot you will never have confidence in it. And confidence in your defensive weapon is irreplaceable. JMO
wlewisiii
Member
Which is _exactly_ why I sold my 642. It hurt too much to practice enough to keep the skill set. I carried a Glock 19 after that - it was much easier on my hand even with Talon +P+ ammo - and I felt that I could practice enough to be safe.
j frame < k frame < something else for some people.
These days I live in a much smaller place and my EDC is a Mauser HSc in .32 ACP. Where you are and what threat you realistically face is more important than any caliber pissing contest on the internet. As EDC's I've carried a Model 64, a 642, a G2 Glock 19, a CZ70 & a Mauser HSc. I'm quite happy with that Mauser these days.
j frame < k frame < something else for some people.
These days I live in a much smaller place and my EDC is a Mauser HSc in .32 ACP. Where you are and what threat you realistically face is more important than any caliber pissing contest on the internet. As EDC's I've carried a Model 64, a 642, a G2 Glock 19, a CZ70 & a Mauser HSc. I'm quite happy with that Mauser these days.
Deaf Smith
Member
Guys,
Just get a ping-pong paddle and every day slap your hand with the paddle ten times. After a few weeks the J .38s won't bother you at all.
I used to own and shoot a S&W 340PD with .357 magnums. Kind of like that ping-pong paddle I tell you.
Deaf
Just get a ping-pong paddle and every day slap your hand with the paddle ten times. After a few weeks the J .38s won't bother you at all.
I used to own and shoot a S&W 340PD with .357 magnums. Kind of like that ping-pong paddle I tell you.
Deaf
788Ham
Member
AK103K,
I like the idea of using one of those Tyler T grips. I've got a Colt Cobra 4" revolver, love it, BUT, the smallish grips on it cause it to ride low, my hands are too big I guess. Going to see about getting one, hope it helps.
I like the idea of using one of those Tyler T grips. I've got a Colt Cobra 4" revolver, love it, BUT, the smallish grips on it cause it to ride low, my hands are too big I guess. Going to see about getting one, hope it helps.
JohnBT
Member
"Just get a ping-pong paddle and every day slap your hand with the paddle ten times. "
When I signed up for handball lessons/league at the Y back in the '70s, they had us run hot water over our hands for 5 minutes before & after playing. It cut down on the bruising, swelling and pain. It helped a lot.
Handball gloves are just to keep the sweat off the ball.
John
When I signed up for handball lessons/league at the Y back in the '70s, they had us run hot water over our hands for 5 minutes before & after playing. It cut down on the bruising, swelling and pain. It helped a lot.
Handball gloves are just to keep the sweat off the ball.
John
Beat-tu
Member
I just got back from Academy. I asked a young guy for "handball gloves". He got a funny look, and said "I'm not familiar with that sport". I really haven't found a glove with padding in the right spot, but still looking...
Tom
Tom
There is hope !
I carry a S&W M&P 340 CT and had the same problems with recoil . I now use a weightlifters glove ( heavily padded palm with tips of fingers cut off ) and put on Pachmyr Compac grips for my range time. It has made a huge difference !!! I can actually shoot it without the glove if I choose. Keep working on an answer, it is important to practice with the firearm you carry. Of course, wait till your hands heal first.
Best of luck,
Jim
I carry a S&W M&P 340 CT and had the same problems with recoil . I now use a weightlifters glove ( heavily padded palm with tips of fingers cut off ) and put on Pachmyr Compac grips for my range time. It has made a huge difference !!! I can actually shoot it without the glove if I choose. Keep working on an answer, it is important to practice with the firearm you carry. Of course, wait till your hands heal first.
Best of luck,
Jim
Lawdawg45
Member
Try going to a bicycle shop and look at their gloves, they have thick padding around the thumb and index finger where you would grasp the handle bar, but it's the same place you need padding to shoot!
LD
The key is to grip your little revolver (any revolver actually) as high on the horn as it was designed to shoot. This gets your hand as high on the bore axis as possible and greatly cuts down on muzzle flip (for faster shooting), and transfers the felt recoil straight back into your arm and shoulder rather than whacking your hand so bad.
Also, a firm grip will help a lot too. In a sense, a soft grip with your hand (no pun intended) allows the revolver to really slap your hand hard, much like what happens to some poor guy's shoulder who doesn't hold the 12 gauge shotgun firm on the shoulder).
I find the S&W "rubbers," with their cushioned backstrap, keeps your hand further back (and lower) on the horn of course . . . ADDING to felt recoil, muzzle flip AND pain.
Today I use good old original S&W magna stocks on my Model 37 Airweight, along with a Tyler T grip. Results? Proper high and firm grip AND much more comfort. I can shoot it for hours!
BTW, my wife has discovered the same truths, and also uses original magnas + Tyler T-grip on her Model 37 too.
Also, a firm grip will help a lot too. In a sense, a soft grip with your hand (no pun intended) allows the revolver to really slap your hand hard, much like what happens to some poor guy's shoulder who doesn't hold the 12 gauge shotgun firm on the shoulder).
I find the S&W "rubbers," with their cushioned backstrap, keeps your hand further back (and lower) on the horn of course . . . ADDING to felt recoil, muzzle flip AND pain.
Today I use good old original S&W magna stocks on my Model 37 Airweight, along with a Tyler T grip. Results? Proper high and firm grip AND much more comfort. I can shoot it for hours!
BTW, my wife has discovered the same truths, and also uses original magnas + Tyler T-grip on her Model 37 too.
orionengnr
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,712
Sir, please take the following with a grain of salt:
From your post I cannot determine whether you are a long time shooter or just recently coming back to the sport. I have taken a number of my fellow employees shooting, and several have mentioned that they were sore in the hands and/or arms the next day.
Most of them are younger than I am, so I can only conclude that shooting uses some muscles that do not get exercised frequently, especially if one is "our age". However, those muscles will develop if you shoot regularly. The other thing I do is to keep one of those spring-squeeze-grip-strengthener devices on the coffee table, and pick it up and do 15 reps with each hand whenever I think of it.
I am only a couple years your junior (55) and I went through a bunch of J-frames when I was conducting the "search for the ultimate EDC".
Started with a used (immaculate) M37, added a used M360, then found a used M340, so bought the 340 and sold the 360 (none cost me more than $500). The 340/360 is brutal with full-power .357s, to the point that I developed a big-time flinch. I also bought some W-M bicycle gloves in an effort to tame some of the bark.
One day I found a older M49 (steel hammerless j-frame), and for a while, that was the hot setup--practice (about 50 rounds) with the M49 and finish up with five rounds of .38Spl and five "real" .357 Mag through the M340. I subsequently found a 340 with the Hi-Viz sight (again under $500) bought it and sold the other 340. I was a sucker for those Scandium j-frames... in theory.
In practice, however, I never reached my potential with any of those j-frames, and never looked forward to my weekly session.
I spent more time shooting a K-frame M-66 and an N-frame M27. I could carry either in the winter time, and still loved the concept of the Airweights.
One day I found a used Kahr PM9 at a reasonable price, and gave it a try. Long story short, whatever J-frames I still had at that point went up for sale. I can put 150 rounds through the PM9 at one session (although 50 is a more representative number).
I know several guys who j-frames (both M642s), and have gotten to try them. I sure shoot a j-frame better today than I did five years ago, even though I hadn't touched one recently. But the PM9 is still the ticket for me (for a pocket carry).
I have, recently, been eyeballing the 642, and I may have to pick one up one day and see if my j-frame bias is mis-directed.
PS: It has been a while since I woke up in the morning and at least one part didn't hurt
Good luck, keep reading and learning. Lots of good people and great info on this forum.
From your post I cannot determine whether you are a long time shooter or just recently coming back to the sport. I have taken a number of my fellow employees shooting, and several have mentioned that they were sore in the hands and/or arms the next day.
Most of them are younger than I am, so I can only conclude that shooting uses some muscles that do not get exercised frequently, especially if one is "our age". However, those muscles will develop if you shoot regularly. The other thing I do is to keep one of those spring-squeeze-grip-strengthener devices on the coffee table, and pick it up and do 15 reps with each hand whenever I think of it.
I am only a couple years your junior (55) and I went through a bunch of J-frames when I was conducting the "search for the ultimate EDC".
Started with a used (immaculate) M37, added a used M360, then found a used M340, so bought the 340 and sold the 360 (none cost me more than $500). The 340/360 is brutal with full-power .357s, to the point that I developed a big-time flinch. I also bought some W-M bicycle gloves in an effort to tame some of the bark.
One day I found a older M49 (steel hammerless j-frame), and for a while, that was the hot setup--practice (about 50 rounds) with the M49 and finish up with five rounds of .38Spl and five "real" .357 Mag through the M340. I subsequently found a 340 with the Hi-Viz sight (again under $500) bought it and sold the other 340. I was a sucker for those Scandium j-frames... in theory.
In practice, however, I never reached my potential with any of those j-frames, and never looked forward to my weekly session.
I spent more time shooting a K-frame M-66 and an N-frame M27. I could carry either in the winter time, and still loved the concept of the Airweights.
One day I found a used Kahr PM9 at a reasonable price, and gave it a try. Long story short, whatever J-frames I still had at that point went up for sale. I can put 150 rounds through the PM9 at one session (although 50 is a more representative number).
I know several guys who j-frames (both M642s), and have gotten to try them. I sure shoot a j-frame better today than I did five years ago, even though I hadn't touched one recently. But the PM9 is still the ticket for me (for a pocket carry).
I have, recently, been eyeballing the 642, and I may have to pick one up one day and see if my j-frame bias is mis-directed.
PS: It has been a while since I woke up in the morning and at least one part didn't hurt
Good luck, keep reading and learning. Lots of good people and great info on this forum.
fastest45ever
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2012
- Messages
- 142
Orion and I are friends. Sold him a gun, talked and emailed for a long time.
I'm older, but in far better shape.
USE A RECOIL CALCULATOR:!
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm
Figure out what makes your hand hurt!
With heavy recoiling guns there are the following factors, and I'll list them in order of what I think are the most important:
Gun weight. Double the weight of the gun, and you can cut recoil speed in half.
Recoil Speed, and it kills. The problem with most lightweights is compared to what they are shooting, they recoil at speeds over 30 ft per sec. Once you get over this, you are in serious pain. Scandiums with full house .357's can get in the 45-60 ft sec range, or death.
Get a load that stays well under 30 ft sec in your gun.
If you do this, the actual ft-lbs shouldn't be too painful.
Match the grip to your handsize. A lot of the problems with shooting big bores is the guns aren't tailored to the shooters hand size. In other words, big hands, small grip, you have to grip it so hard it one hurts, two, accuracy is horrible.
The alternative is to drop the loads down to a level where you can shoot them. Orion essentially did this giving up on revolvers and going to the PM9.
Less recoil, better trigger pull.
Accuracy factors trigger pull. Vital. Some scandiums come with special sandpaper surfaces, and a 16 pound trigger from the box. YMMV.
That said, if you combine misfitting grips with a horrible trigger pull your barn will be safe.
Finally get a set of quality shooting gloves with gel that absorbs and distributes recoil.
Some of us can hit rams at 200 yards with a snubby. So get the right combination, and the sky is the limit.
I know a REALLY famous gunsmith that thought he was God, and shot super high recoiling pistols for a long time. He now has a nerve disease where his brain tells him that he's shooting a .475 Linebaugh
while he's a sleep, at breakfast, etc. and sending the pain messages to his body. It's a true living hell, and there is no cure. so be darn careful you don't go down that road.
I'm older, but in far better shape.
USE A RECOIL CALCULATOR:!
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm
Figure out what makes your hand hurt!
With heavy recoiling guns there are the following factors, and I'll list them in order of what I think are the most important:
Gun weight. Double the weight of the gun, and you can cut recoil speed in half.
Recoil Speed, and it kills. The problem with most lightweights is compared to what they are shooting, they recoil at speeds over 30 ft per sec. Once you get over this, you are in serious pain. Scandiums with full house .357's can get in the 45-60 ft sec range, or death.
Get a load that stays well under 30 ft sec in your gun.
If you do this, the actual ft-lbs shouldn't be too painful.
Match the grip to your handsize. A lot of the problems with shooting big bores is the guns aren't tailored to the shooters hand size. In other words, big hands, small grip, you have to grip it so hard it one hurts, two, accuracy is horrible.
The alternative is to drop the loads down to a level where you can shoot them. Orion essentially did this giving up on revolvers and going to the PM9.
Less recoil, better trigger pull.
Accuracy factors trigger pull. Vital. Some scandiums come with special sandpaper surfaces, and a 16 pound trigger from the box. YMMV.
That said, if you combine misfitting grips with a horrible trigger pull your barn will be safe.
Finally get a set of quality shooting gloves with gel that absorbs and distributes recoil.
Some of us can hit rams at 200 yards with a snubby. So get the right combination, and the sky is the limit.
I know a REALLY famous gunsmith that thought he was God, and shot super high recoiling pistols for a long time. He now has a nerve disease where his brain tells him that he's shooting a .475 Linebaugh
while he's a sleep, at breakfast, etc. and sending the pain messages to his body. It's a true living hell, and there is no cure. so be darn careful you don't go down that road.
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
Guys, I don't think you're listening to the OP, he said he has a S&W Bodyguard 38, not a "normal" S&W J frame. I'm not sure it's as easy to change grips on the Bodyguard 38 as with the J frame. Remember, the Bodyguard 38 is the polymer frame revolver and it's a completely different design over the J frame revolver.
I'm not even sure you can change the grips on that revolver and if you can it's so new I have never seen replacements available on the NET.
HERE is a set of inexpensive shooting gloves from Midway USA. HERE is a much better set that will last a long time and take most of the bit out of shooting. (and they are twice the price too) THESE are also interesting, they have gel-pads in the palm.
I'm not even sure you can change the grips on that revolver and if you can it's so new I have never seen replacements available on the NET.
HERE is a set of inexpensive shooting gloves from Midway USA. HERE is a much better set that will last a long time and take most of the bit out of shooting. (and they are twice the price too) THESE are also interesting, they have gel-pads in the palm.
WardenWolf
member
I can help you, OP, as my family has an original S&W Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard.
These guns can indeed take standard J-Frame grips. The Model 38 we have is a round-butt J-Frame (rounded rear edge, not a hard corner), though I believe some variants have a normal butt. I installed a Hogue boot grip on it, and that tamed the recoil and made it very pleasant to shoot.
Here's a link to what you want: http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_35_87_732_189&products_id=1756
These guns can indeed take standard J-Frame grips. The Model 38 we have is a round-butt J-Frame (rounded rear edge, not a hard corner), though I believe some variants have a normal butt. I installed a Hogue boot grip on it, and that tamed the recoil and made it very pleasant to shoot.
Here's a link to what you want: http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_35_87_732_189&products_id=1756
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A very good point. Unfortunately Smith & Wesson's advertising/sales departments lack the intellect to assign new names to new products, and this can and does sometimes cause confusion. Be sure you know what you are dealing with before making recommendations
ArchAngelCD
Member.
WardenWolf,
The Model 38 is NOT the Bodyguard 38. Did you even click the link I provided?
The Model 38 is an Airweight J frame revolver and the Bodyguard 38 is a completely new design and constructed using a polymer frame.
The Model 38 is NOT the Bodyguard 38. Did you even click the link I provided?
The Model 38 is an Airweight J frame revolver and the Bodyguard 38 is a completely new design and constructed using a polymer frame.
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