J Frame Spring Questions

[Pat Riot]

Well, I installed factory firing pin, hammer and rebound springs. The hammer spring was a breeze as was the firing pin spring. There was a noticeable difference in compression of both in relation to the factory springs.
On the rebound springs I there was less tension on the original vs the new spring but not a whole lot of difference.
One of the reasons I went with the factory rebound spring was once I got that sonofa…uh, thing, in I sure as heck didn’t want to take it out. I am pretty sure I used every cuss word in my extensive dictionary. I was a sailor in the Navy, ya know. I have a large cussing dictionary.
What saved the day for me was a Schrader Valve Tool or tire valve stem tool.


That tool made it easy to install the spring. Even still I decided enough was enough and put the nifty Wilson spring kit away.
I also polished and greased the rebound block. Wow! What a difference that made!
I am looking forward to shooting it tomorrow to see how things worked out. My trigger pull is noticeably smoother. We’ll see what the targets say tomorrow.

Thank you all for your advice.
I liked the feel of the 442 so much I polished the rebound on my model 36 as well. Now it feels smoother.

Here they are. All nice and spiffy. I took that Monogrip off the 36 and made it “Old’s Cool” again.

 

[Pat Riot]

UPDATE:
Model 36-2. See this picture?


Now look at this picture. See the difference?



I came out into my garage to load some ammo and I saw this:



DUH!

Anyway, I decided since I would be taking the side plate off my 36 to reinstall the hammer block I may as well play around with the Wilson Combat springs. I had already polished the rebound slide so I polished the hammer sides a bit to remove a rough edge near the pivot and then I installed the 8# hammer spring and after a little tinkering I ended up leaving the 14# rebound spring from the kit as @9mmepiphany predicted.
Boy, is that trigger pull light.
I’ll see how it works at the range later.
Now that I have figured out an easier way to remove and replace the rebound spring I may revisit playing with different weights in my 442, but I think I will leave the factory hammer spring.
We’ll see.

 

[Pat Riot]

I took my 2 J frames to the range along with my GP100. All ammo fired was with CCI SPP.
The 442 had 3 misfires in 20 rounds.
The 36 had 1 misfire in 10 Double Action and 0 misfires in 10 Single Action.
I fired 60 rounds through the GP100 with no misfires.

S&W 442:
The trigger pull of the 442 was stout. My POA vs my POI truly suffered. Perhaps I will tinker with the rebound spring after all, but the hammer spring stays.
I am going to take @9mmepiphany advice and buy the Apex firing pin. The original appears just fine but it could be work. I have nothing to compare it to so I will just buy the Apex pin.

S&W 36-2:
I think the factory hammer spring is going back into the 36. I will tinker with the rebound springs or leave the 14# depending on how it feels.

It’s a bit frustrating but I am sure it’ll all get worked out.

 

[Pat Riot]

Also, I think perhaps I will use this batch of CCI primers for loads on my bigger guns and use the Federal primers I just received for loads for the J frames. I have segregating ammo like that but I think @wcwhitey and @halfmoonclip are correct that these latest CCI primers do seem harder. The firing pin indents in the primers of the misfired rounds were just too shallow for the issue to be springs alone.

442


36

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just looking at the indentions, I’d be confident saying it isn’t a matter of spring power.

Are you having more consistency with factory rounds?

 

[halfmoonclip]

Okay, going to restart this post; you're having the problem with both guns, double action? With full power mainsprings? Then it's not a gun problem.
When I box up my reloads, I lightly run a finger over the primers, checking that they are all well seated. Primer hardness can affect seating, as well as ignition.
Never had misfires with CCI primers and a full power mainspring.
As 9mm asked, how do factory rounds act?
Really hate when a potentially social gun acts up.
Moon

 

[Pat Riot]

Just looking at the indentions, I’d be confident saying it isn’t a matter of spring power.

Are you having more consistency with factory rounds?

Good question. I have very few factory rounds. Not willing to fire those I have in tests right now unless I can replace them easily.

 

[Pat Riot]

Pat, always concerned that my surgeons will have similar problems; they'll put me back together, and end up with something left over.... Your Centennial, of course, won't have a hammer block.
Yeah, the rebound spring gets easier with practice, tho', often as I've done it, did spear myself when my homemade tool slipped. Called it everything but a Christian. That factory forked tool works,too. Sometimes.
Wow, those primers aren't marked much. You are sure you've seated them firmly and fully? I've become much better at leaning on the handle of the Dillon...but I've mounted a another handle on the bench to work against with my left hand. Do you run a finger, lightly, over your seated primers?
Really hate when a potentially social gun acts up.
Moon
ETA- Pat, do the same chambers always act up? Mark them with silver marking? No end shake issues?
M

Haha…no, the hammer block issue was with the 36, not the 442…which has none.

I always look over my primers after seating. They were good. I didn’t think about the same chambers possibility. I will have to look at that. I didn’t notice any end shake but I really wasn’t looking for that.


I think I will order the Apex kit and load some ammo with Federal primers and see how that fares. I may have to wait a while on this though because I am on vacation starting next Saturday and won’t be getting around to working on my guns until the last couple of days of March.
It’s not like this is a rush job as I do not actively carry here in Granola Land, but it bugs me when I have gun issues with any gun.

 

[Pat Riot]

I just quickly checked my 442 for end shake on all chambers. It measures between 0.0015 to 0.002” on all chambers between the cylinder and barrel. It’s tight.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Pat, I revised my other post; virtually certain you have a primer problem, if both guns are misbehaving, double action, with full power mainsprings.
The revised post, make absolutely sure the primers are fully and firmly seated; a fingertip over the finished rounds might find high primers.
I've developed a much better feel for seating primers on the Dillon over time.
Only change one thing at a time, and can you lay hands on some WWB factory range ammo?
Moon

 

[Pat Riot]

Moon, Thank you. I use an RCBS Auto Primer. The primers are definitely seated properly. I do all my hand loads on a single stage. Before moving on to dropping powder in the cases I inspect each case for high primers as they sit in the loading block.

I will have to see about some factory stuff.

 

[JERRY]

before I bother with springs I do the "dime test" to ensure the firing pin protrudes adequately.

 

[Pat Riot]

before I bother with springs I do the "dime test" to ensure the firing pin protrudes adequately.

Measure the firing pin protrusion against the width of a dime?

I believe I may be taking the advice of @9mmepiphany and @Tacoma and buying the Apex firing pin. Regardless of whether or not it a primer issue with CCI primers I think a little insurance might be a good thing.
Still not crazy about the trigger pull on the 442 with factory springs. Reliable is good but so is hitting what you’re aiming at.

I will be heading out for a few days so I won’t be able to do any testing until the end of March due to personal obligations. I will be around on the forum I just won’t be working on my guns or shooting at my local range until later in the month. I am going to order the Apex kit and try it out. If nothing else this is a very good learning experience, that’s for sure.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Still not crazy about the trigger pull on the 442 with factory springs. Reliable is good but so is hitting what you’re aiming at.

Apex offers a whole kit for the J-frame which include the extended firing pin and 3 springs…firing pin, rebound and mainspring

 

[Pat Riot]

Apex offers a whole kit for the J-frame which include the extended firing pin and 3 springs…firing pin, rebound and mainspring

I am going to just quit fooling around and order the Apex kit for my 442. I will use the CCI primers I have for my K frames and 9mm rounds and Federal primers for my J frames and Colt DS. Thank you for your help.

 

[Pat Riot]

Well, it’s the CCI Primers!

I was out of town last week but I went ahead and ordered the Apex Duty / Carry spring and firing pin kit for my S&W 442. I left the Wilson Combat springs in my model 36. I installed the Apex springs and extended firing pin in my 442.
@9mmepiphany
Wow! What a difference in trigger pull.
Unfortunately neither J frame could ignite the CCI primers consistently. 5 misfires for every 10 rounds tried.
The kicker is, my K frames and my GP100 have no trouble with the CCI primers.
Anyway, I tested 50 rounds of Wadcutter loads in the 442 and the 36 using Sellier & Bellot primers = No problem!
I put 50 rounds (rapid fire) Wadcutter loads with Federal Gold Match primers and Man, what a nice round of shooting that was.
The trigger pulls on both my J frames are a pleasure to shoot.
The 442 with factory springs was a mother*.
No longer.

I am going to leave the J frames as is and just use the CCI primers for 9mm and .38/.357 loads for my K frames and GP100.
The J frames will get the Gold…Gold Medal Federals, that is.
As soon as I can get some good factory loads I will try those. Until then I will stick with the loads / primers that work.

Thank you all for your help and input.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

Not sure what the spring weight is, but I installed an Apex spring kit on both, a model 36 and a 638. Along with the mainspring and rebound spring, the kit came with a new firing pin. I am assuming it is just a touch longer than factory. No light primer strikes, smooth 9 lb pull on both. The Model 36 seems to have a bit smoother pull, maybe because of steel guts and not mim parts, but both have great triggers now.

 

[Pat Riot]

Okay, I contacted CCI.

HERE is some email back and forth. Their questions in BLACK, my answers in RED

What of brass are you using? Various makes. Federal, Blazer, Starline, Remington and Winchester, mostly.

What depth below flush are your primers set to? They are flush. I "eyeball" each piece of brass in the shell holder before proceeding to add powder.


Where are the primers stored? I store all my primers indoors in a gun cabinet. I maintain a temperature range in my home between 68 and 70 degrees.


Was there any evidence of contamination on the box? No, they were pristine. I can send photos if you like.


Of the rounds that did go off did any of them hang fire or pop and fizzle? No, they worked perfectly.


What tool do you use to seat these primers? I use an RCBS Automatic Priming Tool

Like I said in my first email. This only happens with my J frames and Colt DS revolvers. I actually thought it might be the springs in my 442, but when my model 36 also had issues I thought it might be the primers.
The Colt DS has been primer finnicky since I got it. I do not use this gun except for a range toy.

Then they responded with this:
Your issue is going to be found likely with your seating depth. Primers should be set at .005-.008” below flush for the most consistent and most reliable ignition. This depth allows for the anvil to properly be seated into the flash hole and pushed back into the priming mix. The issue that we see is when these arent set deep enough the primer either moves forward when struck into its proper place and will go off on the next strike or the primer is struck and the anvil is pushed forward and the priming mix is broke and the round will never go off. I have looked into each of the lots you have and havent had any other reported issues with any of them. You may look at adding some extra leverage to seat these primers in the RCBS tool. This is an excellent tool but you may need to lean on it a bit harder to seat them well below flush like we are needing here.

I will recommend priming 20 cases without powder or a bullet and taking them outside or into a well ventilated are and firing them. If they all go bang then I would believe your issue is resolved.

I hope this helps. If it does not let me know and we can go from there. I believe this is the issue as you had a high failure rate and we normally have a failure rate of about one in a million.

I did as they asked and “WALLAH”! No issues with my 442. Here is my final response to them.

Hello Cody,
I am happy to report and happy to learn that you were right.
I checked some of my already loaded .38 Spl ammo with CCI primers and the average depth dimension was .004”. A few were .0035” in depth.
I loaded 20 cleaned, sized, deprimed cases and I took the added step of cleaning the primer pockets. All 20 pieces of brass had been reloaded 2 or 3 times. I used 20 primers from the Lot #H29B4OI
I seated them all to a hard stop on my RCBS Auto Primer and the seating depths were .005” - .0055”. One was at .006” and one at .007”.
I loaded my S&W 442 four times and all rounds fired perfectly.
Also, after I fired all 20 I realized that since I had my initial problem I had swapped springs and firing pin over to the Apex / Duty Carry Kit.
I also had some misfires after that swap and that is when I wrote you folks.
I am very please with the outcome today and I learned something in the process.
Thanks very much for the time and the loading tips.

Final…maybe
So, I plan to load up some more ammo with CCI primers and follow what I did above and see how it goes. I really didn’t think that .001”+ in extra seating depth would make a difference. I learn something new every day.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Glad you figured out what was causing your issues. It is a fairly common misconception that seating primers flush is "deep enough"

Every now and then we'll read about someone who thinks they can get away with seating SPP using the LPP ram on their priming tool...because it is seating the primers flush