James Yeager's latest .40 sucks video.

[murf]

Then it wouldn't be a small framed gun.

of course it would still be a small framed gun.

Just say, "oops, I misspoke here. The .38 Super is too long to fit in 9mm sized guns," and be done with it.

what, and take your word a 38 super won't fit in any currently produced gun. not a chance. you don't know that.

murf

 

[CDW4ME]

First I will say, like i said, there's more to it, bullet type and what length barrel will have differences. they cannot really be compared in the real world as they do in the lab like results. We can all agree that shot placement is more important to the 9mm/40 cal/45 acp.
Now to counter the point: the .45 has a bigger cross section then the rest. for the size of a 9mm in its relative cross section it still has good tissue damage and ke that it puts on the target...for its size. Like i said, bullet profile matters, but i dont want to compare a 140 gr .40 to a 185gr +p .45, i want to compare the moment. The extra moment with utilize the ke being produced more by how it transfers, since the moment isn't transferred back into the bullet..like a bouncy ball, but rather into the body. even if the momentum did transfer back to the bullet, it would just expand more, allowing the larger cross section to mushroom larger, now spreading ke, and enlarging the over all wound track.
momentum also consequently is also why .45s have more penetration. since ke is not a realistically conserved, you obviously lose that energy when things collide. momentum is conserved so it will have either a positive or negative effect, dumping energy more efficiently or giving better penetration or both...depending or terminal factors related to the target. which is the issue with these arguments is that people only look at the lab results of these debates...what bones do...that fact that skin is tougher to penetrate then three layers of muscle...hence why a lot of bullets are bulged and stop in the back of skin when they decelerate. Bones, skin and muscle slow down the bullet, and reduce the effect of KE. That 13% more moment will help the remaining energy if we are splitting hairs as the KE dissipates and cause that temp cavity to stretch more in the right places. Either way that wont be enough for a one shot kill, they will all require more than one shot usually...again depending on shot placement.

Gotcha, Glock 21 > Glock 22 or 35

 

[ATLDave]

of course it would still be a small framed gun.

[forehead smack] This is like saying "sure, you can get a .300 win mag in a short-action rifle. You'll just need to stretch the action and the magazine. But it will still be short-action."

If what you mean is that a .38 super will fit into a magazine that is less fat than a double-stack .45 magazine, you are at least theoretically correct. But the length of travel of the slide and the length of the magazine - no. It will have to be the same size as guns running .45ACP or 10mm. And since those dimensions are what people are talking about when they talk about large versus small frames (otherwise a 1911 in 45 acp would be a small-frame gun - it's quite thin), no, you cannot fit a .38 super into a "small frame" gun in the usual meaning of that word.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

[forehead smack] This is like saying "sure, you can get a .300 win mag in a short-action rifle. You'll just need to stretch the action and the magazine. But it will still be short-action."

Challenge accepted.

 

[entropy]

I live adjacent to a corn field. I know all about "rural folks", I is one. I also know that UPS and FedEx come right to my door. I don't waste money either and often driving to Walmart, standing around for half an hour waiting for a clerk to buy ammo with 9.75% sales tax is not the most economical. Right now I can order 1000rds of 9mm for $17 less than it costs to drive to Walmart and buy it, IF they have it.

All I'm saying is that if you ONLY buy guns that you can feed from Walmart's shelves, for that reason alone, you are probably not much of a shooter.

OK, support that theory. Walmart stocks the last three US standard issue rifle calibers, and the last three US issue pistol calibers. (.38 Spl. counts as was issued to aviators and MPs. (CID) ) It also carries the last two issue Russian rifle calibers, 7.62x54R and 7.62x39. Many former vets buy guns in these calibers and keep up their marksmanship skills with ammo bought at Walmart. Many who never served buy guns in these calibers, and while not every AR owner is a Tier One Operator, they don't all necessarily buy their ammo at Walmart. As I posted in post #40, as it happens, with all of the guns I own currently, minus BP, the ammo can be had at Walmart. I assure you I am a decent shooter. I'm not Carlos Hathcock, Lones Wigger, Doug Koenig or Dan Bonilla, but I hold my own. Why gosh, my store even sells .300 Blackout. (Not much of it, though.) Caliber choice does not add or detract from one's marksmanship.Rounds downrange sent with purpose and lessons learned from them add to one's marksmanship. Having a .338 Lapua or 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't turn you into SuperSniper, practice with them might. There are some very deadly shooters out there who only shoot .308 or .30-06. (Both available at Walmart.) If you were to amend your statement to "If you buy all your ammo at Walmart and get out once a year, you probably are not much of a shooter", I'd be more inclined to agree with you. BTW, you can order bulk ammo if it's not instock, and the shipping to the store is free. Ask your local Walmart's Sporting Goods Dept. Mgr.

 

[entropy]

Challenge accepted.

Sure, if you pull the bolt out for each round.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Sure, if you pull the bolt out for each round.

hmm see now thats an idea.. this challenge will be done in no time.

 

[dogtown tom]

All I'm saying is that if you ONLY buy guns that you can feed from Walmart's shelves, for that reason alone, you are probably not much of a shooter.

That's one of the silliest if not ignorant statements I've ever read on THR.
WalMart and other retailers stock what sells.....the most popular and in demand calibers.
Buying guns or ammo in obsolete, rare or boutique calibers doesn't make someone a "shooter".

Choosing a firearm based on the popularity and availability of that ammunition at the worlds largest retailer is not only a good idea, it's common sense.

 

[ATLDave]

dogtown', I think it all depends on what you mean by "much of a shooter." With the exception of maybe the guys on the AMU, in the competition world there's basically no way to get serious without rolling your own ammo, for instance.

In any event, the internet has, for most of us, completely eliminated the issue of whether it is "smart" to use ammo that is not available at Wal-Mart.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

what, and take your word a 38 super won't fit in any currently produced gun. not a chance. you don't know that.

That's not what he said, he said it wouldn't fit in a small framed gun

 

[CraigC]

OK, support that theory. Walmart stocks the last three US standard issue rifle calibers, and the last three US issue pistol calibers. (.38 Spl. counts as was issued to aviators and MPs. (CID) ) It also carries the last two issue Russian rifle calibers, 7.62x54R and 7.62x39. Many former vets buy guns in these calibers and keep up their marksmanship skills with ammo bought at Walmart. Many who never served buy guns in these calibers, and while not every AR owner is a Tier One Operator, they don't all necessarily buy their ammo at Walmart. As I posted in post #40, as it happens, with all of the guns I own currently, minus BP, the ammo can be had at Walmart. I assure you I am a decent shooter. I'm not Carlos Hathcock, Lones Wigger, Doug Koenig or Dan Bonilla, but I hold my own. Why gosh, my store even sells .300 Blackout. (Not much of it, though.) Caliber choice does not add or detract from one's marksmanship.Rounds downrange sent with purpose and lessons learned from them add to one's marksmanship. Having a .338 Lapua or 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't turn you into SuperSniper, practice with them might. There are some very deadly shooters out there who only shoot .308 or .30-06. (Both available at Walmart.) If you were to amend your statement to "If you buy all your ammo at Walmart and get out once a year, you probably are not much of a shooter", I'd be more inclined to agree with you. BTW, you can order bulk ammo if it's not instock, and the shipping to the store is free. Ask your local Walmart's Sporting Goods Dept. Mgr.

Let me rephrase it. If you don't buy certain guns in certain chamberings because you cannot buy ammo for it at Walmart, you are not a very dedicated shooter. Because I'll go a little further and say that most of what I would call dedicated shooters are not buying their ammo at all, they're handloading it. I'm not talking about ability. I'm talking about interest in and commitment to the sport. Sure, you can be a hell of a rifleman but only have one .22LR rifle that you shoot every day of the week but that's not what I'm talking about. So if you're buying 100rds of 9mm every couple months and shooting it at the local indoor range then no, I don't consider you "much of a shooter". That's not said to impugn anyone's character. It is said because Walmart has a very limited selection. Not only in chamberings but in available loadings. They're only going to carry what is the most popular. It is said because it makes absolutely no sense to limit yourself to their selection when anything can be had online. There's a whole bunch of guns I own that I wouldn't if I limited myself to Walmart's ammo selection. No .32-20's, .38-40's, .44-40's, .44Colt's, .480's, .500's, etc. All my .45Colt's would have to be standard pressure loads. All my .44Mag's would be 240gr, which severely limits the cartridge. I sure as hell wouldn't have just bought a Winchester .38-55, a .460Rowland conversion, or that .405, or a .338RCM, .416Rigby, .250Savage, etc., ad nausuem. In fact, I probably wouldn't own any of them if I didn't handload. I certainly wouldn't shoot them much.

That's one of the silliest if not ignorant statements I've ever read on THR.

Disagree if you want but I'm quite certain the "I" word does not apply.

Buying guns or ammo in obsolete, rare or boutique calibers doesn't make someone a "shooter".

I never said it did but limiting yourself to Walmart's ammo selection has a huge impact on what one deems "obsolete, rare or boutique", whatever that means. To them, the .38-55 qualifies. To me, it's not at all uncommon.

Choosing a firearm based on the popularity and availability of that ammunition at the worlds largest retailer is not only a good idea, it's common sense.

No, it makes no sense whatsoever. Unless you're one for whom a "box of shells" lasts five years, then you're exactly who I'm talking about.

 

[JTQ]

of course it would still be a small framed gun.

what, and take your word a 38 super won't fit in any currently produced gun. not a chance. you don't know that.

murf

Sure, the .38 Super will fit in a bunch of "currently produced guns".

Lets use the Glock family as an example - it will fit in the G20/G21 and any other guns that shoot .45 ACP or 10mm. However, it won't fit in any Glocks that shoot 9mm/.357SIG/.40S&W.

The .38 Super needs what the gun folks like to call a large frame.

 

[entropy]

I reload and buy ammo at Walmart. I bought a box of Federal .22 Automatch when I left work tonight. (Can't reload that, despite the kits BudK sells...) I also picked up a CRKT Obake on clearance for $15; I can't believe the Sporting Goods Mgr., my best friend, didn't tell me he had those. But he did tell me he had rifles, (Axis II) and ammo in 6.5 Creedmoor.
The way you phrased it, it sounded like "if it is at Walmart, it's not uncommon enough for me", a statement that seems almost elitist to us unwashed masses. I've owned guns in calibers that you had to go to the Old Western Scrounger for ammo, and enjoyed them. Nothing wrong with that. And yes, I get what you were trying to say. I see those folks far too often at work, and at the range.... But they enjoy shooting too, whether they a much of a shooter or not. I used to be that way with softball- bad at it, but I enjoyed the heck out of it.

 

[coyotehitman]

James Yeager sucks. He's an angry little dude. One of those over-compensating, high-strung macho types that you'd hate to get stuck on an elevator with.

You just described 75% of the tacticool, beer bellied, know it all, high speed low drag keyboard commandos who post to this forum.

 

[Panzerschwein]

You just described 75% of the tacticool, beer bellied, know it all, high speed low drag keyboard commandos who post to this forum.

This forum doesn't seem to have that many... ARFCOM, though...

 

[Elkins45]

The WalMart thing isn't about proficiency, or about reloading. I assure you I am a good pistol shooter and I can for darned sure assure you that I have an embarrassing amount of hoarded brass in every caliber.

The WalMart thing is about not carrying reloads in a defensive gun. I made 800 rounds of 9mm last week but my carry gun is loaded with factory Speer Gold Dots. If there's no 9mm left to replace them at the store then I have to hoard them, or switch guns. Having a 40 available means I can temporarily switch to a different gun that does have some factory ammo remaining on the shelves.

I've been told that during the deepest part of the banic the only handgun calibers left on the shelves were 10mm and 357 Sig...and don't you know I own those too! It's good to have options.

 

[murf]

[forehead smack] This is like saying "sure, you can get a .300 win mag in a short-action rifle. You'll just need to stretch the action and the magazine. But it will still be short-action."

If what you mean is that a .38 super will fit into a magazine that is less fat than a double-stack .45 magazine, you are at least theoretically correct. But the length of travel of the slide and the length of the magazine - no. It will have to be the same size as guns running .45ACP or 10mm. And since those dimensions are what people are talking about when they talk about large versus small frames (otherwise a 1911 in 45 acp would be a small-frame gun - it's quite thin), no, you cannot fit a .38 super into a "small frame" gun in the usual meaning of that word.

yes, we are talking about a "long action" here, not a "large" action. still, no one has made a long/small frame for the 38 super. the 38 super doesn't need a large frame, just one a little longer (call it a mid-frame if you like).

reading blogs back in the early 00's, the rim of the 38 super was a problem when trying to fit the cartridge to 9mm sized guns. it was too big for the breech face. so someone developed the 9x23 winchester to overcome that problem and to be able to make major power factor. problem was the round would not fit in the smaller guns. today the round is all but obsolete.

whatever the reason, the 38 super is not a common cartridge today (small demand?), and has not been chambered in a small framed (still haven't defined that term) gun.

murf

 

[JTQ]

reading blogs back in the early 00's, the rim of the 38 super was a problem when trying to fit the cartridge to 9mm sized guns. it was too big for the breech face. so someone developed the 9x23 winchester to overcome that problem and to be able to make major power factor. problem was the round would not fit in the smaller guns. today the round is all but obsolete.

murf

You, or anybody else, cannot get a 9x23 Winchester into 9mm sized guns either. The round is too long, just like the .38 Super.

 

[ATLDave]

yes, we are talking about a "long action" here, not a "large" action. still, no one has made a long/small frame for the 38 super. the 38 super doesn't need a large frame, just one a little longer (call it a mid-frame if you like).

Everyone else here uses "large frame" to indicate that the gun can accommodate cartridges of the length of 38 super/10mm/45ACP.

If what you are suggesting is a skinny gun that can take 38 super, that gun already exists - a 1911 chambered in 38 super. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of such guns in circulation. They have been in existence for about a century now

reading blogs back in the early 00's, the rim of the 38 super was a problem when trying to fit the cartridge to 9mm sized guns. it was too big for the breech face. so someone developed the 9x23 winchester to overcome that problem

I think you should link to those blogs of the early 2000s.

And you should be aware that at least two variants of the 38 super - the 38 SuperComp and the 38 TJ (for Todd Jarret) dispense with the semi-rim. This wasn't done to make the round "fit in 9mm sized guns," because that doesn't change the length. That was done to resolve feeding reliability issues (since 38 super guns of the last 40+ years have been made to headspace on the case mouth rather than the semi-rim, for accuracy reasons, there was no longer a need for the semi-rim).

Also, note that the 9x23 Win was rendered largely obsolete because of these rimless 38 super variants and the development/availability of powders that made it possible to make major power factor fairly comfortably in a 38 super... no need for the rifle-thickness brass of the 9x23 with appropriate powders.

whatever the reason, the 38 super is not a common cartridge today (small demand?)

You keep repeating this as though this is some point of contention. Nobody contends it is a common cartridge in the way that a 9mm or 45 or 40 is. It is quite common in USPSA and IPSC in Open-division guns, though. But that's a comparatively niche market. (And they're all running large-frame guns, like 2011's, Tanfoglio large frames, CZ Czechmates, etc.).

whatever the reason, the 38 super... has not been chambered in a small framed (still haven't defined that term) gun

Either "small frame" refers to the action length (which is how everyone else defines it), in which case it hasn't been chambered in a "small frame" because it's literally impossible, or "small frame" refers to the width of the gun, in which case it has been chambered in 1911's in large numbers for a century.

 

[JTQ]

Here is an American Rifleman article comparing the .357 SIG with the 9x23 Win.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/10/31/9x23-mm-357-sig/

Some key points...

The 9x23 mm was a .45 ACP-length round intended for single-column M1911-style pistols. Approximately the same length as the .38 Super, the 9x23 was essentially a lengthened 9 mm Luger cartridge.

In 1994, SIG collaborated with Federal to develop the .357 Sig cartridge. This redoubtable Swiss-German-American firm wanted a powerful medium-bore automatic pistol round that was short enough to comfortably fit in the double-wide magazines of.40 S&W-sized autos.

I feel somewhat silly arguing this point with you (edit to add: I'm arguing with murf, not ATLDave). I'd just let it go, but the forum should have accurate information. The .38 Super and 9x23 Winchester will not fit in 9mm/.357SIG/.40S&W sized guns. The .38 Super and 9x23 Winchester rounds are too long. They need to be used in .45 Auto and 10mm sized guns, which are generally referred to as large frame guns.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

This forum doesn't seem to have that many... ARFCOM, though...

CH doesn't post often anymore. He is (or was) a cop who doesn't care much for the idea of civilian concealed carry. He's posted a couple of times about how if he discovered your gun during a traffic stop he'd have you proned out at gun point. People ragged him about it and he went away

 

[franco45]

I don't like 40 and I don't like James Yeager. Wait. So why am I bothering to respond to this. lol

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Police don't carry 380, 357, 38spl, 10mm, 454, 44 or 500. And very few I'm pretty sure carry 45's. Are those going away?
I also don't pay much attention to guys wearing Spider-Man T-shirts.

 

[Macchina]

the 40 s&w will be here for as long as "run and gun" competitions have a major/minor classification. it and the 38 super are the only commercial cartridges (as far as i know) that will make major and that can be chambered in a small framed gun.

as soon as the major/minor classification goes, the 40 s&w goes. it's not a nato cartridge, leo is dropping it for the 9mm, the fbi is dropping it for the 9mm. nothing else is keeping it alive as a popular pistol round, imo.

murf

Yeah... Shooting competition is what keeps cartridges alive... To bad I can't buy .380, .45, .357, .38, or any of the other cartridges they don't use in shooting sports...

 

[ATLDave]

Well, shooting competitions can and do keep cartridges alive. But other things keep them alive, too.

BTW, 45 and 38 spl have HUGE roles in competition.