Jamming from lead or powder?

[badkarmamib]

I have loaded over 1K of these before:

.40S&W 180gr lead FP, 18 Brinell, lubed
4.7gr HP-38
1.115 OAL

S&W M&P FS

Today, after the first couple of mags, I had three-point jams every other round. I finished the mag, and ran a bronze brush down the bore. I got one more mag to run, then it started acting up. I checked the dirty chamber, and it wouldn't pass a plunk test. Two passes with the brush, and it passed. I had gum on the breech face, at the edges and around the extractor. This was harder to get clean than the chamber. Would run another full mag, and then it would act up until I cleaned it. Didn't matter which mag I used.

So, is the build-up likely lead, powder residue, or a mixture? Am I not sealing the chamber with such a light charge, and I should increase it? Would a different powder solve the problem easier? Thanks for any input.

 

[mdi]

My guess would be a combination of powder residue and bullet lube...

 

[.308 Norma]

Am I not sealing the chamber with such a light charge

That would be my guess. And as mdi said, it would be my guess too that it's a combination of powder residue and bullet lube.
The question I have though is this: Is 4.7 grs. of HP-38 behind a 180 gr. bullet really that light of a charge in a .40S&W? I didn't look all that hard, but I only found that load in one of my manuals (Hodgdon) and my Hodgdon manual shows 4.7 grs. of HP-38 behind a 180 gr. bullet as slightly above medium. I guess what I'm asking is, have you used that powder charge before with 180 gr. jacketed bullets and had problems with your .40S&W's chamber not getting sealed?
To me, it's a curious problem. I love handloading cast bullets in my handguns, but I mostly handload for revolvers.

 

[SamT1]

Try a stiffer crimp it’s pretty magical with all cast loads.

 

[LiveLife]

40S&W 180gr lead FP, 18 Brinell, lubed ... 4.7gr HP-38 ... 1.115 OAL

Am I not sealing the chamber with such a light charge, and I should increase it?

4.7 gr HP-38 is not a light charge for 180 gr Lead FP.

Older Winchester load data lists the following for W231 - http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Winchester/Winchester2003.pdf

170 gr Lead W231 OAL 1.135" Start 4.0 gr (850 fps) 22,800 PSI - Max 5.2 gr (1030 fps) 33,200 PSI
200 gr Lead W231 OAL 1.135" Start 3.0 gr (700 fps) 21,100 PSI - Max 4.0 gr (850 fps) 33,200 PSI

And current Hodgdon load data lists the following for Berry's 180 gr plated FP bullet - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

180 gr BERB FP W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (872 fps) 26,400 PSI - Max 5.1 gr (984 fps) 33,500 PSI

With 180 gr lead and plated FP bullets (TCFP), 3.9-4.2 gr of W231/HP-38 will reliably cycle the slide and produce 9mm-like recoil yet accurate enough practice rounds. I typically use 4.3 gr for plated 180 gr bullets but my barrels have .400" groove-to-groove diameter. If your barrel has larger .401" groove diameter, you can consider using Lyman load data (Lyman #49 used .401" groove diameter test barrel):

175 gr #2 Alloy RNFP W231 OAL 1.125" Start 4.3 gr (863 fps) 15,400 CUP - Max 5.8 gr (977 fps) 22,500 CUP
175 gr #2 Alloy TCFP W231 OAL 1.110" Start 4.3 gr (796 fps) 16,000 CUP - Max 5.8 gr (970 fps) 22,700 CUP

180 gr lead FP ... 1.115 OAL ... S&W M&P FS ... I had three-point jams every other round

1.115" OAL is short for 180 gr FP bullet. Is this the maximum OAL that will work with your M&P barrel? With TCFP bullets, I have found longer OALs tend to feed better.

For my Glock/Lone Wolf/M&P40 barrels, SAAMI max OAL of 1.135" will reliably feed from the magazine and I use even longer 1.142" with MBC 180 gr lead TCFP for greater accuracy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

Longer OAL will allow the bullet's bearing surface to engage the rifling faster to build chamber pressure faster which will seal the case mouth faster with the chamber to leak less gas.

Would a different powder solve the problem easier?

No. I like W231/HP-38 and Sport Pistol for producing light 9mm-like target loads.

For higher velocity and accurate loads, I like WSF, Herco and BE-86 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

With RMR 180 gr RNFP, I use even longer 1.155" OAL

 

[Dudedog]

Yuck, sounds like the main problem is the lube, if you lubed them yourself maybe try another lube, if you bought them try another brand or get the coated ones if available.
Sounds like a combo of the lube, powder residue, and maybe a little lead making mess.
When I used to shoot lead I used a lot of lubed MBC bullets with no issues, but decided for a few $ more to get the coated ones when they became available.

I don't own a .40 but have used plated bullets from RMR in my 9mm and .45 and been quite happy with them. RMR offers THR members a 5% discount with a code and has free shipping. Plated of whatever flavor might be an option as well.

 

[badkarmamib]

Thanks to everyone so far. I am struggling to remember where I came up with 1.115 for my OAL. I have a sneaking suspicion that I was using the questionable OAL of the WWB ammo that I was using for target practice prior to reloading. I was using the Berry's data from Hodgdon for the powder charge, that much I do remember. I will experiment with increasing the OAL, and double - check my crimp.

I do not cast or lube, I buy them already done. My supplier offers Hi-Tek coated bullets, and a friend ordered some to try. If he has favorable results, I will probably give them a shot, for $0.01 more per bullet.

 

[SamT1]

I set all my cast pistol bullets length with my thumb nail. Thumb nail width of the bearing surface sticking above the brass

 

[billybob44]

You can buy coated (Powder Coat Paint) bullets from most of the Big Mfg's.--Try them=You WILL Like them...
Some also offer un-sized, un-lubed projectiles. Try your hand at Powder coating

I have loaded over 1K of these before:

.40S&W 180gr lead FP, 18 Brinell, lubed
4.7gr HP-38
1.115 OAL

S&W M&P FS

Today, after the first couple of mags, I had three-point jams every other round. I finished the mag, and ran a bronze brush down the bore. I got one more mag to run, then it started acting up. I checked the dirty chamber, and it wouldn't pass a plunk test. Two passes with the brush, and it passed. I had gum on the breech face, at the edges and around the extractor. This was harder to get clean than the chamber. Would run another full mag, and then it would act up until I cleaned it. Didn't matter which mag I used.

So, is the build-up likely lead, powder residue, or a mixture? Am I not sealing the chamber with such a light charge, and I should increase it? Would a different powder solve the problem easier? Thanks for any input.

"http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives"
^^^Go this direction--You will never go back to "Lubed" bullets..
You can buy cast-not lubed bullets from some of the Mfg's and coat yourself, or buy bullets already coated.
I have casted/lubed bullets for awhile, and I can NOT see going back to lubed bullets...Bill.

 

[joneb]

If you are seating a crimping in one step have a good look at the finished round right at the case mouth.

 

[badkarmamib]

Loaded up 20 this morning. Dropped to 4.5 grains as a precaution, increased OAL to 1.135", and reset for just enough crimp to remove the bell. Hoping to get out this afternoon to see if they are any cleaner.

 

[Toprudder]

Twice I have had issues similar - after 2 or 3 mags, the gun would fail to go into battery reliably.

In one case, it was cast/lubed bullets, and if I mixed up plated and cast bullets, alternating one of each, I did not have any problems and I was able to use up the cast bullets. I believe that lead was building up on the beginning of the rifling.

The other instance, I was using plated bullets, but the problem ended up being the powder. I was using HS-6 powder in 45acp. The powder was not burning well and was leaving a gummy residue inside the chamber and on the breech face. I could alternate using mags of different powder (BE86 in this case) and it worked fine.

 

[badkarmamib]

UPDATE :

I got to the range late this afternoon. Fired all 20 as fast as I could, no jams, no residue. Thanks @bds and everyone else! Looks like I will need an extended range session, with a lot of cleaning, to burn up the + 250 short rounds I have loaded. Then I get to start playing with a new load.

On a side note, my 7YO loved his new M&P 15-22. It took quite a while before I could shoot my pistol, since I had to keep reloading his magazine. Between him and his 9YO brother, I didn't know a brick of .22LR could disappear that fast...

 

[badkarmamib]

Also, for the other suggestions :

Powder charge: I knew I wasn't real low on the charge, but knew I had some room to increase, and understand that HP-38 is one of the dirtier powders.

Crimp: I am seating and crimping in the same step. I believe that seating further out might have made an improvement on bullet deformation/shaving due to the crimp, will play with that some more, as well.

Powder coated: I am seriously considering trying coated bullets for my next order. But, that will be awhile, since I just received 1K of lead, I wasn't completely out, and I have reached my component budget for now.

 

[LiveLife]

180 gr lead FP ... 4.7gr HP-38 ... 1.115" OAL ... I had three-point jams every other round

I typically use 4.3 gr for plated 180 gr bullets ... 1.115" OAL is short for 180 gr FP bullet ... With TCFP bullets, I have found longer OALs tend to feed better.

Dropped to 4.5 gr ... increased OAL to 1.135" ... Fired all 20 as fast as I could, no jams, no residue.

Good to hear.

I ... understand that HP-38 is one of the dirtier powders.

With jacketed/plated/coated lead bullets, W231/HP-38 burns relatively clean but with lubed lead bullet, W231/HP-38 can leave gummy residue. If you want cleaner burning powder, consider Sport Pistol which uses comparable powder charges to W231/HP-38 and meters even better with less temperature sensitivity.