John Ascroft: America is freer today !

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As Danimal has demonstrated, to say that the Patriot act does not violate anyones rights requires one to take a ridiculously narrow and deterministic view of what rights are.

Driving and flying are not rights? Bushwah. Every individual has the right to do anything at all that does not violate the person or property of another.

- Chris
 
[q]That's not to say that with a change of administration, the Patriot Act could be turned against us. But unless someone has actually been unjustly hurt by the Patriot Act, this is an academic discussion and not a practical one. [/q]

THAT is one of the most moronic and sophomoric statements I have ever heard.

The true test of any law is not the good that it can do, but the evil that can be done in its name.

Don't believe me? Go look up the Emergency Decrees passed after the burning of the Reichstag. Here's a hint: Germany, 1933. Oh, what the hell, here's the rest of the story:

President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in time of national emergency. This Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State abrogates the following constitutional protections:
Free expression of opinion
Freedom of the press
Right of assembly and association
Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications
Protection against unlawful searches and seizures
Individual property rights
States' right of self-government
A supplemental decree creates the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special Security) Federal police agencies.
 
That is the beautiful thing about language, and the most agrivating part of it. Most anything can be misconstrued and taken out of context.

I truely believe that you didnt mean to slander the person who made the statement. However, some can say that by calling something that someone said "moronic", you are also calling the person "a moron" as well. One of those annoying little quirks.

Anyway, no harm done to anyone. Let the PA and Ashcroft bashing continue!:D
 
FOR THE RECORD, though I disagree with many of his comments, I do NOT believe Danimal to be a moron.

can we drop it and get back to the Ashcroft bashing:D
 
As Danimal has demonstrated, to say that the Patriot act does not violate anyones rights requires one to take a ridiculously narrow and deterministic view of what rights are.

Driving and flying are not rights? Bushwah. Every individual has the right to do anything at all that does not violate the person or property of another.

Sure they do....in a Libertarian Utopia. I'm not saying I disagree with you philosophically, but in the real world, things are decidedly different.

As for the moron comment, I don't take it personally. Naturally, I think I am right, or else I wouldn't have bothered to write it. But we are all gentlemen, and gentlemen can disagree about substantive issues. I am sure I have called people and statements much worse and I welcome the debate.

Onward!
 
Danimal,

C'mon now...I want specific examples of freedoms and rights YOU have lost as a result.

Ah, I see; because they haven't come for ME yet, I haven't lost anything.

Thanks for clarifying that, Reverend Niemoller. :D

Of course, if they had come for me, I couldn't tell you about it, because that would be a federal felony under the (hilariously misnamed) Patriot Act. :uhoh:


Edit:
Here's one: I've lost the right to know if my house was searched by the fed.gov while I was at work yesterday. (Or was that one already gone because of the War on Whatever? I can't remember... It's been so long since the Fourth Amendment was useful for anything but toilet tissue... :scrutiny: )
 
Ah, I see; because they haven't come for ME yet, I haven't lost anything.

Thanks for clarifying that, Reverend Niemoller.

Fine. Name ANYBODY whose rights were lost in the big Ashcroft Concentration Camp Roundup Jubilee, academically known as the Patriot Act. Hopefully, you will be smarter than a few folks and choose someone OTHER than an admitted terrorist and traitor.

You can't run around and say your rights have evaporated because you don't know if the government has been in your house. That argumentation is ridiculous on its face. If that's the war cry for the anti-Ashcroft/Patriot Act crowd, you folks are going to need some better material if you ever plan on discussing this with people who don't live in their parent's basement and tape reruns of the X-Files.

Please understand, I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that you are going to need something more substantial than the hint that a government stooge from some unnamed alphabet soup agency MAY or MAY NOT have scoped out your library card.

And to follow that train of thought....Libraries are usually government run, either through the county or city. If they want to look at your records, it seems they have the unfettered ability to do so since they own the books and the building. If all you great lovers of literature don't want the government to know what you are reading, go to a bookstore and buy it.
 
Now we have a whole 'new' area to 'investigate'.

Under federal law prior to the Patriot Act, any law enforcement agent could get a warrant to search a particular person's library records if a person could be identified, or even the entire library record if a particular person was not identified, upon a showing of probable cause. For example, you find a copy of a book at a crime scene and it's from a library. If the library didn't open up the records, any judge would issue a warrant to find out who checked out that book. Similarly, it's determined that someone used a library computer to access classified information, but the library won't say who was using the computer. Any judge would again allow a search of the user database as there was probable cause that someone committed a crime and there was evidence of the offender's identity in that database. All that was going on prior to the Patriot Act, and is perfectly consistent with the 4th Amendment.

These searches could also cover a vast area of turf. For example, if you are suspected of conspiracy to commit terrorism, a proper search could include books on: political theory, theology, explosives, weapons, infrastructure, etc. Anything that justified your action, formed the basis for your intent, would allow you to further the conspiracy would fall within the type of evidence which could be examined. It's just a question of explaining to the judge why the agent thinks the material is relevant.

I agree that the idea of an agent being able to access records may have a chilling effect on some. But I think it's important to be able to identify our target. The issue is overreaching by the gov't, and the Patriot Act is a symptom of that, and focussing our ire on it runs the risk of masking what should be the true target.
 
Interesting.

Using the form of logic that those who defend Ashcroft in his quest for more police power, one should honestly ask what, if any gun rights have they lost since 1934.

After all, the NFA didn't ban a single thing. It was what came afterword....
 
Using the form of logic that those who defend Ashcroft in his quest for more police power, one should honestly ask what, if any gun rights have they lost since 1934.

For the record, don't count me in as one of those who defends Ashcroft. Except for allowing the counter-terrorism and criminal investigation branches of law enforcement to talk to each other, I haven't seen crap that's been done that made much sense. We can fight terrorism quite well using pre-9/11 legal structure.
 
The true test of any law is not the good that it can do, but the evil that can be done in its name.
On the money!

The thought of the Patriot Act in the hands of the next Janet Reno keeps me awake at night.
 
The true test of any law is not the good that it can do, but the evil that can be done in its name.
By this measure, is the Constitution evil because it contains the interstate commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause?
 
By this measure, is the Constitution evil because it contains the interstate commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause?

No, the Constitution is not evil because of those clauses. However, there has been tremendous growth in the size and reach of the Federal Govt due to the intentional stretching of those two clauses, far beyond what the Founders intended. Is it all good? Ask the people whose marshy property they bought for development was declared "a wetland" and is now nondevelopable. Or, simpler, just go take a huge dump into a low-flush toilet and place a bet on how many flushes you'll need to make it go down.
 
C'mon now...I want specific examples of freedoms and rights YOU have lost as a result.

That's easy: if you are deemed a "terrorist" or "terrorist enabler" in the eyes of the government you can be locked up without a hearing or being given an attorney until hell freezes over if they think allowing you those would be "dangerous".

You don't think you lost some freedom? Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
tyme:
By this measure, is the Constitution evil because it contains the interstate commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause?
Excatly! Finally, someone understands! :D

Danimal: Rights are abstract concepts, and as such they exist independent of what you term 'real life'. To put it another way, just because the government makes a habit of violating my rights, does not mean they do not exist. Everyone still has the right to life, even though everyone dies eventually.

- Chris
 
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