John Ascroft: America is freer today !

[Ryder]

Hard to see how we can be considered more free than anytime in our history when prison numbers are at record numbers (2,000,000 plus). Seems to me like there's a prison in every county these days and the talk of building new ones continues. The most recent proposal here has some people in an uproar. But probably only because it's thier back yard. There is one already operating in Freeland (how's that for irony) which is the next town over. A whole half dozen miles down the road at least. Somebody needs to figure out how close it too close I guess.

One difference between us and the Nazi is that the authorities are now trying to sneak into unoccupied homes to gather evidence before hauling people away. Must have caught the plain clothes cops badly off-guard last summer when one of the three suspects who were not supposed to be home got away with his life. SWAT arrived late but they got the priveledge of dragging the two across the front yard by thier heels for our viewing pleasure. Really wierd how much that reminded me of my old hunting camp experiences. Smiles all around! You guys really should leave your masks on until the cameras are turned off... Hope that's helpful. Just trying to be a good patriot

 

[Orthonym]

Dept of Homeland Security?

Howzabout "Reichssicherheithauptamt?" Oh, Publius, you might try Eugene Volokh's site for info on differences between wired phones and Internet.

 

[Sam Adams]

Danimal

I appreciate you playing Devil's Advocate or, if you are serious, debating your side of this issue in good faith. However, I (like others here) disagree with you regarding the Patriot Act.

The biggest point you made was that you wanted specific examples of how THR folks had been victimized by the Patriot Act. I think that this line of reasoning is a red herring. The point that people, both on THR and elsewhere, have made against this legislation is that it has an awful potential, not that it has already had an effect (and that is subject to debate, though I won't get into it). In case you either don't understand, or don't want to, let me illustrate by using a rather absurd example:

Suppose a law was passed that allowed immediate executions of anyone, citizen or not, without trial by any federal law enforcement official if such person questioned the authority of that federal official in any way whatsoever. Would the fact that no such executions had occurred as a result of this statute for a few months after its enactment really comfort you? I would hope not. Because such an action could be implemented at any time. Even if the administration that got such a measure passed was composed of entirely moral people who would never authorize or condone such a thing (quite a reach by itself, in ANY administration), such morality would not be a brake on the power of someone less moral in some future administration.

Let's now be a bit more realistic and look at some of the powers in the Patriot Act. Apparently, any time the Feds want to they can look at your library, internet, bookstore, etc. records merely by claiming that you were a terror suspect. No one could challenge such an accusation, whether valid or not, not even if the officer requesting such information was a bald-faced liar. The only check on such an action is a judge, the identity of whom no one seems to know. And his/her actions are not subject to review by ANY court - PERIOD! Bye-bye privacy, bye-bye 4th Amendment. Oh, and you can also be incarcerated without probable cause, without a hearing, without representation by an attorney - indefinitely - if the feds say that they suspect you are a terrorist or a member of a terrorist group. Your trial, if you even had one, would be in secret, and there'd be no appeals - PERIOD! You could even be executed, without Due Process (bye-bye 5th Amendment, 6th Amendment and possibly 8th). Oh, and the whole issue of which groups are terrorists brings up another issue: the AG can name terror groups, apparently without any review. Can't you see the NRA or JPFO or GOA named as a "terrorist group" by AG Chuck Schumer under President Hillary? That, Danimal, is the heart of the problem - not Ashcroft's or Bush's character, but the power that is UNCONSTITUTIONALLY being seized by the feds at the expense of our basic rights.

Wake up!

 

[buzz_knox]

Just because the federales haven't yet used their swoopy new powers to conduct a clandestine search of your home while you were picking up a pint of Haagen Dasz from the Quickie Mart doesn't mean that they don't now have the legal power to do so.

Memo to self: buy a case of flashbangs and place in the gun safe, bookshelf, etc. Good deterrence for burglars, nosy maintenance staff, and clandestine FBI pukes.

Besides, it ain't a booby trap if it's nonlethal, right?

 

[Sam Adams]

Danimal, Tamara & Al Norris

I own a truck and if I had a mind to, I could go and run over a bunch of people. However, most people do not treat me with contempt and suspicion just because I have the power and means to do something evil. It.usually takes some sort of proof

I would second what Al Norris said about guns. Owning a gun in way too many newspapers and on way too many TV and cable stations is considered conclusive proof of attempted murder, if not murder itself. Owning several qualifies you for immediate demonization, and owning (gasp!) an EVIL ASSAULT RIFLE means you are the Spawn of Satan.

Danimal, are you that unimaginative, or have you merely got no recollection of current events since about 1970? Sorry to be so sarcastic, but making this particular statement on a gun board is asking for it.

 

[Tamara]

Sam Adams,

I'm sorry, I must've missed where I agreed with that line of logic.

Could you please show me?

 

[Sam Adams]

Tamara

I addressed you because you had expressed sentiments similar to mine (and in opposition to Danimal's) regarding the ownership of guns as compared to trucks. Sorry for the confusion...my bad.

 

[DaveB]

C'mon, think about this. I found this on www.counterpunch.org. Respond to the allegations, please, and not the identity of the website.

"The gag order that violates the 1st Amendment right of speech, the 5th Amendment right to due process, and 6th Amendment right to counsel."

Secret Subpoenas - What Patriotism Means to Ashcroft, By ELAINE CASSEL

Last year, hacker extraordinaire Adrian Lamo broke into The New York Times web site. For his trouble, he faces a two-count federal indictment in New York, unauthorized access of a computer and unauthorized possession of "access devices" (LexisNexis database passwords).

Don't cry for Lamo, but cry for how the FBI and the Department of Justice are using the USA Patriot Act--surprise!-- to threaten journalists and obtain data under the USA Patriot Act.

The FBI has sent out letters to reporters who wrote about the Lamo case. The letters warn that subpoenas under the USA Patriot Act will be forthcoming for all of their notes, emails, interviews, content of conversations and investigations, and expense and travel reports related to stories they wrote about Lamo. The journalists are ordered to preserve these records for three months, this in spite of the fact that the articles were written a year ago.

Using the Patriot Act for forthcoming subpoenas is an effort to circumvent journalists' privilege of preserving confidential sources under the First Amendment. Furthermore, reporters who talk to anyone_including their editors or lawyers (!) about the subpoenas will be subject to criminal prosecution under the Act. The gag order that violates the 1st Amendment right of speech, the 5th Amendment right to due process, and 6th Amendment right to counsel.

The demand that journalists preserve their notes is being made under laws that require ISP's and other providers of electronic communications services to preserve, for example, e-mails stored on their service, pending a subpoena, under a statute modified by the USA-PATRIOT Act.

You thought the USA Patriot Act was just to be used to prosecute "terrorism"? Wrong! The Patriot Act was an Executive branch power grab that took place in an atmosphere of hysterical reaction to the September 11 hijackings. Ashcroft seized the day, while the Congress slept. The dirty little secrets of the extent of the Administration's intentions for the law are only just now coming to light.

More than likely, you won't know when the law is being used against you. We only know about these subpoenas because a Wired News reporter reported that the FBI contacted him, no doubt trying to get the word out before the gag order kicks in. Secret subpoenas, secret evidence, secret trials. That's patriotism today.


Elaine Cassel practices law in Virginia and the District of Columbia, teachers law and psychology, and follows the Bush regime's dismantling of the Constitution at Civil Liberties Watch. She can be reached at: [email protected]

db

 

[Balog]

Danimal wrote:

Likewise, if you have to go through additional security measures at the airport - as annoying as they are - does not mean you are less free.

I don't have to drive, and you don't have to fly.

Both are conveniences and not rights.

And what do you consider as "rights" then? If we cannot drive or fly without being subject to random searches [and seizure of property considered "threatening" like a pocket knife], then what exactly was the point of the 4'th A? Is walking down the street without being stopped and searched a "privilege?"
And you still haven't answered the points raised regarding the ability of the State to hold "terror suspects" [like meth dealers ] without any of the Constitutional safegaurds. You've mocked the people who's rights have been violated, but not answered the question. And I'm sorry, but saying "he confessed to being guilty, therefore it's ok that we violated his rights" is just silly.

 

[Balog]

Oh, let me remind all here that it took around five years for the first ruling on the NFA. To the question, "what has it done to you" I can only answer...
Nothing. Yet. That I know of.

 

[Al Norris]

http://www.counterpunch.org/cassel10012003.html

October 1, 2003

Secret Subpoenas
What Patriotism Means to Ashcroft
By ELAINE CASSEL

Last year, hacker extraordinaire Adrian Lamo broke into The New York Times web site. For his trouble, he faces a two-count federal indictment in New York, unauthorized access of a computer and unauthorized possession of "access devices" (LexisNexis database passwords).

Don't cry for Lamo, but cry for how the FBI and the Department of Justice are using the USA Patriot Act--surprise!-- to threaten journalists and obtain data under the USA Patriot Act.

The FBI has sent out letters to reporters who wrote about the Lamo case. The letters warn that subpoenas under the USA Patriot Act will be forthcoming for all of their notes, emails, interviews, content of conversations and investigations, and expense and travel reports related to stories they wrote about Lamo. The journalists are ordered to preserve these records for three months, this in spite of the fact that the articles were written a year ago.

Using the Patriot Act for forthcoming subpoenas is an effort to circumvent journalists' privilege of preserving confidential sources under the First Amendment. Furthermore, reporters who talk to anyone_including their editors or lawyers (!) about the subpoenas will be subject to criminal prosecution under the Act. The gag order that violates the 1st Amendment right of speech, the 5th Amendment right to due process, and 6th Amendment right to counsel. .

The demand that journalists preserve their notes is being made under laws that require ISP's and other providers of electronic communications services to preserve, for example, e-mails stored on their service, pending a subpoena, under a statute modified by the USA-PATRIOT Act.

You thought the USA Patriot Act was just to be used to prosecute "terrorism"? Wrong! The Patriot Act was an Executive branch power grab that took place in an atmosphere of hysterical reaction to the September 11 hijackings. Ashcroft seized the day, while the Congress slept. The dirty little secrets of the extent of the Administration's intentions for the law are only just now coming to light.

More than likely, you won't know when the law is being used against you. We only know about these subpoenas because a Wired News reporter reported that the FBI contacted him, no doubt trying to get the word out before the gag order kicks in. Secret subpoenas, secret evidence, secret trials. That's patriotism today.

Elaine Cassel practices law in Virginia and the District of Columbia, teachers law and psychology, and follows the Bush regime's dismantling of the Constitution at Civil Liberties Watch. She can be reached at: [email protected]

What with a couple of meth dealers being prosecuted under that Act for WMD, now this.

And so it begins....