some people's sensitivity is amazing, isn't it??

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alan

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Friday, September 19, 2003 Pittsburgh TribuneReview



Ashcroft rips 'Patriot' critics






By The Washington Post
Friday, September 19, 2003



WASHINGTON -- The Justice Department Thursday escalated its attack on opponents of the USA Patriot Act, likening criticism of the anti-terrorism law to "castles in the air" and accusing some lawmakers of ignoring classified reports that showed the government had never used its power to monitor individuals' records at bookstores and libraries.
In an unusually sharp and at times sarcastic speech to police and prosecutors in Memphis, Attorney General John Ashcroft Thursday labeled critics of the law "hysterics" and said "charges of abuse of power are ghosts unsupported by fact or example."

"The fact is, with just 11,000 FBI agents and over a billion visitors to America's libraries each year, the Department of Justice has neither the staffing, the time nor the inclination to monitor the reading habits of Americans," Ashcroft said. "No offense to the American Library Association, but we just don't care. ...

"The charges of the hysterics," Ashcroft added, "are revealed for what they are: castles in the air built on misrepresentation; supported by unfounded fear; held aloft by hysteria."

Ashcroft's comments came after the release of a memo he wrote disclosing that the Justice Department has never used a controversial section of the Patriot Act that allows authorities in terrorism investigations to obtain records from libraries, bookstores and other businesses without notifying the subject of the probe.

That portion of the law, Section 215, had become a central focus of criticism from civil liberties groups, booksellers and librarians, and has been perhaps the most frequently cited example of potential government abuse by some lawmakers. By disclosing that the provision has never been used, Ashcroft and other Justice officials hope to neutralize much of the criticism and beat back attempts to curb the law, officials said.

The Justice Department did not disclose how many times investigators have used a similar tool, National Security Letters, to obtain business records. Sources have said that scores of such letters have been used since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

The department also took special aim Thursday at some members of Congress who have implied that Ashcroft was spying on Americans' book-reading habits despite having access to classified reports that showed that the Patriot Act provision had never been used. The Justice Department updates the intelligence committees on its use of the Patriot law twice a year, and other members of Congress can request those reports, officials said.

"There are members of Congress who ought to be held accountable for their statements, because they had access to this information but continually charged that abuses were taking place," said Justice spokesman Mark Corallo. "They knew better. ... We hope that the release of this information will bring some rationality back to the debate."

Corallo declined to identify which lawmakers he was referring to. But some of the strongest congressional criticism in recent weeks has come in the Democratic presidential race. In a debate in Baltimore last week, Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., warned of turning over "our constitutional rights to John Ashcroft" and decried "the notion that they are going to libraries to find out what books people are checking out, going to bookstores to find out what books are being purchased."

As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Edwards had access to the reports on the use of the Patriot Act.

Edwards' spokeswoman, Jennifer Palmieri, said Thursday that Edwards, who voted for the Patriot Act when it was approved in October 2001, was concerned about potential abuse of some parts of the statute. She also said that Justice officials have offered confusing information about the monitoring of library use. One Justice official testified earlier this year that the FBI had sought records from about 50 libraries, but that most, if not all, of the requests were part of criminal investigations, not counter-terrorism probes.

"The senator believes that the law gives the attorney general too much discretion in this area," Palmieri said.

The American Civil Liberties Union, which has filed a lawsuit challenging the government's powers to monitor such records, said yesterday its concerns were not allayed. "What we've always been focused on is the scope of the law itself, and that hasn't changed at all," said ACLU attorney Ann Beeson. "They could use it tomorrow and we would never know, and that makes it extremely dangerous."

Posters Note:
Re legislation, the following must be kept in mind. More important than the good endings obtained from the proper operation/enforcement of the law are the very bad endings obtained from the improper operation/enforcement thereof. Additionally overly broad grants of power and or authority seem always to be abused by the grantee, against the grantor.
 
Ashcroft's comments came after the release of a memo he wrote disclosing that the Justice Department has never used a controversial section of the Patriot Act that allows authorities in terrorism investigations to obtain records from libraries, bookstores and other businesses without notifying the subject of the probe.

So it is supposed to be just fine that the law says that they CAN do this, just because they haven't done it YET ??????????

That is like saying that there is no reason to complain about a law that says that the govt can pull you out of your home and execute you for any or no reason, because no one has ever been executed under that law (yet!).

Is Ashcroft nuts, or does he really believe that we are all that stupid?
 
Is Ashcroft nuts, or does he really believe that we are all that stupid?
Answer: Yes.

I can't possibly fathom why anyone would be put at ease just because a particularly tyrannical law hasn't ever been used even though it is on the books.

Seriously, if that law isn't going to be used then I suppose that Mr. Ashcroft would have no qualms if it were to be removed. Right?

Riiiiiight.:rolleyes:
 
it will be abused eventually

And that is what is wrong with the Patriot Act.

My wise old Uncle told me that what they should have done was put a time limit on the act and not just passed some broad new powers.

No turning back is what scares me.:what:
 
I'll believe him after he has successfully campaigned to strike it from the law.

Until then, tis indeed dangerous.

Like many of our laws.

Sam
 
It's gotta go. I bet Reno just LOOOOVES it . Eventually we will se someone just like her back in office, with their finger on the button. Then there will be Hell to pay!:barf:
 
...ignoring classified reports that showed the government had never used its power to monitor individuals' records at bookstores and libraries.



soooo..... basically.. "here's the proof we're not abusing our new powers, oh, well.... no, you just can't see the proof because it's classified But trust us, the proof is there. "

riiiiiiiiight....:rolleyes:

I swear, I like this man's support of the 2A, but if he's not careful, he may yet find out what exactly he's defending there and why... the hard way. Kind of a shame really. I read his lil' book some time back to see what he was all about, and he seemed a decent guy. Looks like the power got to him.


-K
 
What's wrong with the patriot act? It plays into the hands of the terrorists.

We are so big they can't hope to put a dent in us. The goal of terrorism is to cause government to tighten down on civil liberties with new laws and cause unrest from within. It's working brilliantly!

The way to beat terrorism is to retain our freedoms, not sacrifice them.
 
The Justice Department updates the intelligence committees on its use of the Patriot law twice a year, and other members of Congress can request those reports, officials said.

Funny, I thought the Patriot Act required the Justice Dep't to give a report to the House and Senate Judiciary committees every six months. Oh, yeah, that's right! Ashcroft's been stonewalling them, and decided he'd report to the Intelligence committees instead. (Too many Democrats on the Judicial committees, apparently.)
 
I especially like the way they named it the "PATRIOT " Act, as if this wasn't exactly the type of thing that caused the colonists to rebel 225 years ago.

I agree with the other posters - once the law is on the books its almost impossible to erase, and its ridiculous to cite the non-use of the law as proof its never going to be used.

Unfortunately, most of our fellow citizens are more worried about why Ben and J-Lo broke up than things like this.
 
Unfortunately, most of our fellow citizens are more worried about why Ben and J-Lo broke up than things like this.
Ugh. As a member of the GenY even though I dont do anything that they do, I have to say that it is true. If asked about the PA, they would say something that they heard in the school paper or something..."Umm, its bad?" However, if asked about the Ben-Jlo thing, they could give you intricate details.:barf: :fire:

Besides, he is a complete celeb...moron. If you had J-lo in your bed, would you turn her away? I most certainly wouldnt.
 
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tis very dangerous.it can be done and some of it HAS been done.just takes 1 persons suspicion.bye bye rights.bye bye everything.ryder has it right on.
 
Ashcroft's comments came after the release of a memo he wrote disclosing that the Justice Department has never used a controversial section of the Patriot Act that allows authorities in terrorism investigations to obtain records from libraries, bookstores and other businesses without notifying the subject of the probe.

And the gov't never rounded up Japanese-Americans into camps before 1941, either...:uhoh:
 
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