Judged mentally deficient????

Status
Not open for further replies.
Eric,

Thanks for the additional info.

The fact that you mention "when he takes his medication" is an indication that he has an actual diagnosed condition - schizophrenia, bi-polar, autism, or something of that nature... as opposed to just being an undisciplined individual.

Can't or won't boil pasta even when hungry... will buy a new shirt rather than wash an old one... can't manage to mow a lawn or change oil in a car... these are signs of serious mental disability. The scene where you described your father's bloodied face and a pistol in a vise with hammer - I'm sorry but the picture that comes to my mind is Rain Man upset about 8 fish sticks and Wapner. When your parents die, he will have to be institutionalized unless you are willing to live with him under your roof. Personally I would not keep a pet cobra under the bed and I would consider living with such an individual to be a similar proposition. Or he may end up as one of the millions of homeless people living on the streets. As cruel as that sounds, it may end up being best for all concerned. He doesn't sound like he would enjoy incarceration in a mental hospital, and as long as he manages to keep out of the way of the law, he could pretty much do whatever he wanted. It's not a lifestyle most of us here would choose, but personally I myself would choose it above life in a mental hospital.

IMHO he will end up in an institution - either penal or mental - and you can either facilitate that process or wait and worry about the day it will happen and who will be caught in the crossfire when it does happen.

I'm very sorry for your situation. IMHO a person who is not in control of their faculties AND suffers from a rage disorder has no business owning or having access to firearms. One of these days one of your parents or you or some random person will do something that sets him off, and tragedy will ensue. I hope the situation is resolved to everyone's advantage.
 
Last edited:
The law is "adjudicated mentally deficient", so a LEGAL ruling in a court of law as to his mental deficiency as an adult would be required (just like a conviction of a felony or misdemeanor crime of DV) to make him a prohibited person. If he committed himself to an institution, then there would be no LEGAL ruling. If he was committed to a mental institution as an adult by a judge as a result of a court hearing, then he would be a prohibited person.
Note: Just because a DOCTOR has diagnosed him to be mentally deficient, that does not rise to the level of a LEGAL finding, and he is not prohibited unless a JUDGE has determined it so.
 
In Michigan, our laws ask quite a bit more than that. On the CPL app, they ask:
1) Have you been found guilty but mentally ill, or offered a plea of not guilty, or acquitted of any crime by reason of insanity?
2) Have you been subject to an order of involuntary committment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to a mental illness?
3) Do you have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness?

I believe these same questions are on the purchase permit questionaire as well.
 
Eric:

I really feel for what you and your family are going through. Although guns and violence fortunately have not played a significant part in my family's experience with severe mentall illness - it has been extremely painful, stressful, and chaotic nevertheless. I say this not for your or anyone else's sympathy - but to let you know I have spent the better part of the past two decades dealing with the effects of mental illness on my family - and have learned a thing or two about it.

I want you to know that you cannot handle it alone - but there is help available. Asking for help is one of the hardest things we have to do sometimes. This is one of those times.

The link below will take you to the Virginia Chapter of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI). Scroll down and find the group closest to you. Call them. Tell them your concerns about your brother. They will help. Go to an information meeting with your parents. Take your brother if he'll go.

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Se...te=/CustomSource/AffiliateFinder.cfm&State=VA

This isn't really about guns, or the 2A. It is about a very real illness than can cause - among other things - violent behavior. We all know that deadly violence can occur with or without guns.

The key is to make sure your brother is getting the right treatment and is sticking with it. This is extremely hard and you may not be able to do much about it - at least at first. Don't give up hope. What you can do now is make sure you and your parents understand what the illness is, what the treatment options are, and what can be done to make everyone safer.

I urge you learn as much as you can. Knowledge really is power.

Does you brother acknowledge his illness? Very often that is not the case. The organ used to make such a determination is the very organ that is afflicted. If he does - you are miles ahead of the game. If he doesn't, arguing with him about it won't help. Believe me - I've tried. An excellent book for families trying to help a loved one was written by a man I worked with on a related project, Dr Xavier Amador. The book is entitled; "I'm Not Sick -I don't need Help!" Here is a link for that: http://www.vidapress.com/

Good luck, and God bless your family. PM me if you have any questions you want to ask me about any of this.
 
Him owning a gun isn't a concern, him being in public is............

If he goes off its not going to matter if he has a gun or not, he sounds like he needs some help.....
 
Eric F - Please don't take this the wrong way, but your brother sounds like a first-class psycho. Even if he is technically legal to own the guns, If I were you, I'd take a second to sit and think about your brother and his apparent history of severe anger management problems and violent tendencies, and act accordingly. I'm not saying call the ATF, but if he's really as bad as you say (breaking windshields, assaulting your father and ripping his pants/stealing and destroying his pistol) then he doesn't need to own a gun, period. It's but a short jump from flying off the handle and punching someone to running and getting that .40 Glock, especially if he becomes as uncontrollably enraged as you attest to.

Also, what (if any) background does the attorney that handled his old cases have with firearms law? I ask, because while getting an actual legal opinion is great, but when you're asking about something as specific (and tricky) as firearms law, I'd sure-as-shooting want to hear from somebody who was familiar with the specific laws being dealt with.

In short, I'm with Tourist - I really, really don't enjoy calling for someone's right to own and use guns being revoked due to mental issues (I'm slightly nutty myself, lol) but in his case, I think it makes sense. Someone is going to get really badly hurt sooner or later if he's got them around.

He needs help. If he really is as bad as you portray him being, he may very well benefit from some sort of social-services intervention. There are programs that will work with individuals who have learning or developmental disabilities, and teach them how to cope with life, and how to take care of themselves. I think we're all trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here, but like I said, some of the behaviors that you've described seeing in him are quite distressing. Please keep us updated, whatever the outcome.
 
Sounds to me like he has legal guardianship/conservatorship, and as such does have legal access to all of the records and information.

Even if he doesn't, he came here with a question about a situation. The polite thing to do is answer the question. I see no reason to jump off the deep end and question his sanity. Let's say, for instance and for the sake of simplicity, that he asked a question about what to do to stay dry because it is raining. I say get an umbrella or hat and coat. You ask if it's really raining. Do you see the difference?

John
 
Report him and the store to the police.
Click to expand...

Why? If it is indeed the case that his hospital stay wasn't court-ordered, and his DV conviction was was a juvenile (IE, he wasn't charged as an adult, and his record was sealed) then technically, he didn't lie on his 4473. And even if he did lie on the 4473, he obviously passed, which is the fault of the NICS, not the dealer. Calling the police on the dealer will get him a visit from the ATF, which isn't something I'd wish on my worst enemy, let alone a business person who was following the law.

Now, that being said - I definitely do think that something needs to be done about the OP's brother. If he really is as unpredictable as the OP reports, him having boomsticks seems like seriously bad ju-ju to me. That leaves us with two questions - what is there to do, and how to get it done?
 
Could you just take the gun from him? When he's not looking.
If you only have one gun store in town maybe you could talk with them ahead of time and try to get them to not sell your bro any more guns.(insert lame reason)

Another Idea
If you had access to the gun for a little while could you disable it? remove the firing pin or something more permanent
So at least if he does go nutty and try to use it, no bang. I'm assuming he is not going and practicing with it.
 
Disabling them (at least temporarily until you find a better option) is actually a pretty good idea. Granted, he might find out, but at least he wouldn't be able to use 'em in the rage that seems to follow his daily upsets.

Taking them while he isn't looking...I wouldn't do. Like mentioned earlier - if the guns are legally his, and the OP just ups and takes them (even if it is for good reason) the brother would be well within his rights to report them stolen. Sure, the OP could explain his reasoning behind the theft (which is what it is, regardless) but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the cops are informed that while the brother might be mental, the guns are legally owned by him, they'll pursue it as a theft. Not worth the hassle on the OP's part.
 
Sounds like it is legal for him to have them, and while not great in this situation, legislation to the contrary would be a mistake that was abused.

He lives there at the discretion of those allowing him to live there.
If they feel threatened by his presence they can boot him out, or he can not have things he is dangerous with while living under thier roof.

Seems rather simple to me.

The way to deal with it is not to try to controll him through the law, the law is not a third parent.
It is to allow him to live there under the circumstances they are comfortable with, or to boot him out.
 
In regards to what I said, I never say he should/shouldn't be allowed to keep his guns, only that if everything the OP wrote is true he might need to seek some anger management help as his problems go beyond simply firearms.

To the OP, its not your place to intervene in what he does, you can suggest things but you certainly can't force them.
 
WOW! there has been a bunch going on in this thread since I was last on!


Folks maybe I painted a poor picture or didnt give out enough information or what ever the case is.

My brother is being treated under the care of a few diffrent resources. I really dont need an education in how he should be treated or cared for.

The origional questions are
1.on the federal form for firearm purchase what exactly does this mean?(adjudicated mentally ill)
2.Who does the judging and who reports this to who?
3.Has he sliped through a crack in the system? Who should I contact for the legalities of this?

I would really like to make a bunch of other comments to some of the other members about their thoughts but I have to remind myself that they only know what I have told them. Unless you have been involved for the whole time of my brothers life there is no way you people could know all that is needed to know about this situation. Like I said earlier I would print a large book on the whole thing.
Thanks
Eric F.

1. answered-being declared mentally ill by a court
2.a-answered the court
2.b unanswered
3.answered- no he has not sliped through the system he is legal to own guns as is.

2.b is unanswered So if a court does declare a person mentally ill who do they report this to and how does this prevent a purchase?
I suspect it gets reported to no body and it is simply a if you do it then we can charge you with another crime sort of thing.

As far as my brother goes he needs the pistol for work he is now an armed security provider. He has the dcjs documents to do such he can hold a job and is a productive member of society(marginaly). I did not know he had gotten this job until yesterday.

Both I and his doctors do not beleive he should have firearms there is nothing leagly we can do to stop it at this time. He rides the edge of the legal system staying just on the side of legal wonership for now. My folks are not happy either and with their health condition this has been the last straw and have asked him to move out with in 2 months.
 
Both I and his doctors do not beleive he should have firearms there is nothing leagly we can do to stop it at this time. He rides the edge of the legal system staying just on the side of legal wonership for now. My folks are not happy either and with their health condition this has been the last straw and have asked him to move out with in 2 months.
Click to expand...

Eric,

Are your parents supportive of him being required to move out? You said they have "health conditions" - you have not said anything about these health conditions impairing their ability to make decisions... when I think health condition the things that come to mind are cancer, emphesema, heart problems, etc... but maybe you are meaning something of a different nature such as alzheimer's or demetia that would prevent them from making competent decisions regarding their own home.

You said he can't care for himself - what will happen when he is living on his own? Will he get fired for showing up to work unbathed with filthy clothes? Will he literally starve because he cannot fix his own meals, or go broke from constantly eating out? It's hard to imagine anyone with this level of disability being trusted with a security job, let alone with a firearm that he carries daily.

(gun related) Since he needs the gun for his job, there is no way you will talk him into giving it up. Do you worry that after a few weeks of trying to "make it on his own" and failing, that he will be off his meds, have a rage attack, and come after you and/or your parents? Your parents don't sound like they're well equipped to defend against that kind of threat, especially from their own son. And if he shows up on YOUR doorstep with the Glock or the AK, are you prepared to take that final step? Most of us would hesitate to put a family member in the sights... but a person who is mentally "off" will suffer no such hesitation. I fear for your safety. Is dealing with your brother (as a mortal threat) something you are mentally prepared to do?

(frankly, after the incident you described with physically attacking your father and destroying his handgun, I am surprised that they continued to let him reside with them... in my home, that would have been the day your suitcase was packed and you were introduced to the sidewalk and the big unforgiving world it leads to.... but maybe that is just me...) :confused:
 
bruss01
It was my folks suggestion for my brother to move out.(not such a bad thing IMO)My folks are mentaly healthy(for the most part.....joke in there some where)They have diffrent health problems that could land them in the funeral home at any time from now to 20 years from now but they are both in and out of the hospital frequently for long durations.

As far as my brother taking care of himself well you need to grow up some time my beleif is that he has never really had to take care of things with out being nagged at. Yes I realize he has some mental health issues but I think he is capable of taking care of himself and just chooses not to. I guess we will see.

Him going off his meds attacking my family or my folks well I cant worry about that now. I will just have to keep in close contact and see what happens. In fact I donot worry about much of anything in my life its a waisted emotion that causes negative events.

The incident where he beat dad up was almost 5 years ago he has made a lot of progress. I can not answer for my folks why they let him continue to live there after that it was their decision. Personally I would have put the dude up for adoption when he was born.( I am not kidding eitherand thats prior to knowing about his mental issues) Mom and dad are completely unable to defend themselves at this point if I feel a danger in the air I can do things to protect them. But right now because of the current laws there is nothing to be done right now.

Its a tough thing. I would like to see him locked up and put away for life but what does that do? I also would like to see him given a chance to live his life on his own like every one else. After all there are far worse folks in society allowed to run free.
 
I reiterrate, there is nothing on a 4473 that says as an adult, when you were over 18, that hasen't been sealed, etc. It asks "have you ever been committed to a mental institution?" and "Have you ever been convicted of a Domestic Violence charge?".

If you really feel that he's dangerous with firearms, call the local ATF office and tell them you think he lied on his 4473. Given their history I'm sure they'll at least look into it. If the ATF tells you he's leagal, then he is. You know him better then anybody here. If he's a threat to society, you should act. If not, let him do his thing.
 
It asks "have you ever been committed to a mental institution?" and "Have you ever been convicted of a Domestic Violence charge?".
Click to expand...
He did not lie. As it turned out the domestic violence charge was reduced to a disorderly conduct and the judge allowed him to voluntairly go to the detention center. As far as the rest goes I will see how he does. Like I said he can and has held jobs and been out in public and drives a car with out endangering others (to our knowledge) For now he will be given a chance I have fullfiled my legal obligations on this matter.
 
"I have fullfiled my legal obligations on this matter."

A father has a legal obligation to pay child support... but doing the minimal doesn't make him a good father. Either way, if anything happens, you must live with the decision. I fear you aren't looking at this from a rational point of view; you obviously love your brother and want the best for him, but you seem to downplay his violent outburst in hopes that he isn't.... what he clearly is.
 
I have fullfiled my legal obligations on this matter.
Click to expand...

Yes, but have you covered yourself from liability? If you have some power of attorney, or conservatorship, the courts might start poking around your life if something nasty happens with him. In any case, a civil suit could be directed your way in any wrongful death action.

I'd be going the extra mile to make sure nobody gets hurt.
 
DDrake I am sorry you think I have done the minimum the fact is I have done every thing there is to do and then some. I have consulted a lawyer and 3 doctors. What would happen if I go to local ATF or Police department whith "My brother has mental problems and shouldnt have a gun?" it would be something like this
ram the door arest everyone and take the guns only to get tham back based on no legal precidence and then charge me with some sort of crime
or
they would look into it and dismiss it.
And thats not my opinion its what I have been told by the lawyer and backed up by a LEO friend of mine. Beleive me I do not down play his history any more than saying "I know this guy that use to get drunk all the time but now he gets drunk once a month" Its just the fact his outburst are not that bad now in comaprison to what they were 5+ years ago.
Yes, but have you covered yourself from liability?
Click to expand...
thats why I have consulted a lawyer
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

coloradokevin
  • Locked
Mental Defectives and Firearms Ownership?
2
Replies
34
Views
3K
bsctov
B
W
  • Locked
PTSD and guns
Replies
23
Views
2K
JohnBT
J
evan price
  • Locked
Mental Competence
Replies
7
Views
608
gezzer
G
S
  • Locked
History of mental illness doesn't prevent gun buys
Replies
8
Views
765
mec
M
N
  • Locked
More Gonzales-"Don't need more guns on campus"
2
Replies
29
Views
1K
ArfinGreebly
ArfinGreebly
Back
Top