juiced up .30 luger?

[justin22885]

as you may know, 30 luger is the predecessor of 9x19mm/9mm nato/9mm luger/9mm parabellum.. if im not mistaken the maximum pressure of the cartridge is about the same as 9mm as well.. interesting though it actually has MORE case capacity by .1 grain H2O than 30 carbine

on another thread we were discussing modernized 7.62x25 handguns and it got me thinking, what if we beefed up the .30 luger to match or exceed 30 carbine performance out of a converted 9mm handgun?, say we make 30 luger brass out of 9x23 brass which can handle a maximum pressure of 55,000 PSI?

as far as the safety of doing this goes, anything that can handle 9x23mm or 460 rowland or any of these more potent cartridges could handle this so it does limit your handgun options but nothing a steel framed 1911 couldnt handle, im sure a steel framed beretta could handle it as well, probably even a glock considering the 460 rowand and 9x23 conversions available for them

so what do you guys think about increasing pressures in a 30 luger to match or exceed 30 carbine ballistics out of the same barrel lengths, for more reliable feeding, easier extraction, and the ease of converting 9x19mm pistols? think it would work, and what pistols do you think would be a good basis for such a test?

 

[Jim Watson]

The Germans juiced up the .30 Luger in 1902 for the Luger Carbine.
I don't know by how much, but the load had a separate catalog number, DWM 471A, and the case was blackened to let you know not to put it in a regular pistol.
The carbine has an 11" barrel and a supplemental recoil spring for the big load.

 

[justin22885]

so then, you think the concept of juicing up a 30 luger using 9x23 brass to match or exceed 30 carbine out of the same barrel length is a valid one?.. now if only i could find .30 luger barrels to convert existing handguns

 

[Jim Watson]

It might be physically possible, but if you are waiting on somebody else to make low demand major parts like odd caliber barrels for your projects, you will not get anything done.

Back before J&G and Numrich had 7.62x25 barrels made up for Colt .38 Super actions, there was a long thread on the AR board about scratch built conversions. A DIY for a barrel was shown. I cannot now find the thread and most of the pictures had expired on photobucket anyhow.

 

[Richard Head]

interesting though it actually has MORE case capacity by .1 grain H2O than 30 carbine

Where are you getting this info from? The 30 carbine can hold 21 grains of H2O the 30 Luger only 14.4.

 

[dancitizen]

Neat concept. Here's my top-of-the-head thoughts...

Could brass be made from .223 the way 7.62x25 is?

Could a 7.62x25 reamer be used, just to a shallower depth? How close are these cases?

A TT-33 or M57 would make an very cheap platform to test, it could take plenty of pressure, and making scratch built barrels is a snap.

 

[barnbwt]

At the same length as a 9mm cartridge (essentially), there's no way it has the volume of a 30 Carbine cartridge (which is even longer than a 7.62x25). It should have a good bit less than a 9mm Para cartridge, rather.

I do think it is an interesting round, and if suitably supported in a pistol (which always seems to be the limiting factor) could probably hang with 9mm for some applications, especially in short barrel configurations (where powder volume is slightly less a deciding factor for power transfer). I wonder if a necked round like the Luger or Tokarev would be more suitable for placing a sturdy crimp into a bullet cannelure, in order to facilitate a Boberg like action but without the bullet-retention problems so common to most pistol rounds?

At the end of the day, there is the fact that the reason most all rifle bullets are necked is because rifle barrels are very voluminous (long) relative to bore size, and so a larger case volume can take advantage. Pistols don't really have that advantage, but a necked case could theoretically get you an equally powerful round from a slightly shorter action (albeit to a much smaller degree than in a rifle) than a straight cased round.

"Could brass be made from .223 the way 7.62x25 is?"
I suspect the thicker walls really start eating into your powder volume. It's gotta be noticeable even in Tokarev converted brass loads (higher pressures for same performance). Since all rounds under consideration have tapered bodies, you can't just run the reamer in a shorter distance; you'd need a narrower case head to fit at that point. You could definitely make the desired reamers from widely-available 5.56/223 ones, though.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"A TT-33 or M57 would make an very cheap platform to test, it could take plenty of pressure, and making scratch built barrels is a snap."
According to Clark on the forum here, the dang Tokarev pistols are basically unkillable with anything resembling sane loads (anything but blank powder or RDX for the charge ). The weak link was the brass, which can ultimately only hold 60,000psi, and only with proper chamber support. And the way pressure works, even if you got the round's pressure up that higher (from 40k to 60k) it's not like your performance would change proportionately; the longer your barrel, the less visible the change would be (since gas volume is ultimately limited by case volume)

TCB

 

[justin22885]

richard, both wikipedia and jdcomponents.com say 14.3.. jdcomponents also lists "20 grains" for 30 carbine as full case capacity, meaning without a bullet?.. this would seem to be measured with a bullet seated though and not filled up to the top of the case mouth which has to be more accurate because i cannot find the total case capacity of an x25 filled to the top

so your 20 vs 14.4 is measuring the case of 30 carbine filled to the top vs 30 luger loaded with a 93 grain bullet (at least thats what it seems as i get both measurements for .30 carbine)

 

[justin22885]

as far as getting a 30 luger barrel, 30 luger chamber reamers are really not all that expensive, the hard part is easily in shaping the outside of the barrel, finding a 30 caliber barrel of the proper twist rate (what twist rate would you even use for a hotrodded 30 luger?) and machining that to fit whichever pistol you use

i dont think i would use a short-recoil operated handgun for this conversion, i think the better solution would be to try this out on something like an uzi pistol, or M11/9, or even a cheap sten.. and contouring an SMG barrel which is pretty much done entirely on a lathe would be far, far cheaper than the complex cuts you have to do to make say a glock or beretta 92 barrel

and can 30 luger be made from 223 brass? i have no idea, however it could most certainly be made from 9x23 winchester brass

 

[barnbwt]

Not a ton of info out there, but;
"Case capacity on the Tokarev is listed as 15.98 grs. of water while the Mauser is listed having a capacity of 16.30 grs. of water."
The Luger would be at least 20% less (25 vs 21 millimeters) and that's assuming you aren't using thick NATO brass to make it. Carbine being at 20 seems about right, so you'd be talking about 13grs vs. 20grs.

Carbine gets compared to 30-06 so it looks perpetually wimpy. Tokarev is compared endlessly to 9mm Parabellum (regular pressure) so it looks all hot-rodded out. Carbine as a round is more powerful than Tokarev by a fair margin, primarily where weight is concerned. I do think Tok would at least match the 30's velocities if the two were at equal pressure footing, though.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

i dont think i would use a short-recoil operated handgun for this conversion, i think the better solution would be to try this out on something like an uzi pistol, or M11/9, or even a cheap sten

If hotrodding, you'll find a lot of extraction problems pop up if you use those (they were built for 9mm, open-bolt). 7.62x25 blowbacks have significantly heavier bolts in practice and still run a lot faster (look up a video of a 9mm PPSH vs a Tok one on full auto). Seeing as even standard 30 Luger is sufficient to operate a SIG P210 all day long, I'm not sure why you think it'd be unsuited to a recoil op design with even more bolt thrust and momentum to contain.

TCB

 

[Richard Head]

so your 20 vs 14.4 is measuring the case of 30 carbine filled to the top vs 30 luger loaded with a 93 grain bullet (at least thats what it seems as i get both measurements for .30 carbine)

Ok, I just ran the numbers through Quickload and with an 85 grain fmj bullet and a col of 1.390" the Tokarev has a useable case capacity of 14.338 grains of water or .931 Cubic cm's.
With a 110 grain fmj bullet and an overall length of 1.680" the 30 Carbine has a useable case capacity of 15.54 grains of H2O or 1.009 cubic cm's. I won't even bother with the 30 Luger because it's obviously going to be less than the Tokarev let alone 30 Carbine case.

I'm not trying to discredit the 7.62x25 Tokarev, it's definitely the better handgun round and one of my all around favorites to shoot. It's just that the 30 Carbine has more potential for power since it has a bigger case. I don't think anybody can or is denying that.

 

[justin22885]

are we talking tokarev or 30 luger at this point?.. the tokarev round is easily more powerful than 30 carbine, 30 carbine is measured out of an 18 inch barrel, x25 is measured from a 4.7 inch barrel

30 carbine: 110 grains from the 18" M1 carbine = 1991fps and 968ft/lbs
7.62x25: 85 grains from the 4'7" (probably from the CZ52) = 1720fps and 560ft/lbs

HOWEVER

30 carbine: 110 grains from a 4 5/8 ruger blackhawk = 1383fps and 467ft/lbs

a 9x19mm +P+ can push 115 grains at 1400fps from a 4.7" barrel

and sure 30 carbine is a tad longer in the case than 7.62x25 but the 7.62x39 is also fatter, plus when you compare the two cartridge you would find the bullets of both extend almost exactly 9mm beyond the case mouth, 30 carbine with a larger bullet is going to be pushed further in which is going to take up more of that case volume... so im pretty sure i was right about useful case volume being roughly the same and the ballistics above prove that at least in shorter barrels the tokarev is even more powerful

up to a 10 inch barrel the both are pretty neck and neck, the M1 carbine doesnt manage better ballistics unless its used on barrel lengths longer than 10 inches

____

anyway, that aside this is about the .30 luger, if the small .30 luger made from 9x23mm brass can be pushed up to increasingly higher pressures to reach or surpass standard pressure 7.62x25, reason for this is you can find more handguns that can be chambered for 30 luger than 7.62x25, more carbines, more rifles, more SMGs all using the same 9mm mags and a barrel change

the goal here is achieving a 200 yard effective range from something that can easily be chambered in common, pre-existing 9mm/40S&W length actions including handguns, submachine guns (their semi-auto carbine versions) and the reasoning for a bottlenecked 30 caliber cartridge as the basis of this is easier, more reliable feeding, better extraction (generally better overall reliability) with a higher velocity, flatter shooting cartridge for better accuracy and can conveniently be made from pre-existing brass (9x23 brass, .223 brass, etc)

 

[barnbwt]

How different do you think this'd be from 22TCM? That round (depending on who you read) is a small bit above or below 5.7x28, but has a lousier bullet since length is in such short supply there.

TCB

 

[WestKentucky]

I'm in...why not simply get a barrel blank, weld on the attachment lug, and insert it into a contender frame to prove or disprove your point. 5.56 reamer would do the deed, 30 cal barrels are in abundance (even if you use a rifle barrel remnant from somebodies SBR hack job). Prove ballistic gains, then if your happy enough to tackle the job of going after a repeater then have at it armed with enough wisdom to know what your doing.

 

[justin22885]

im relatively new to the quickload program, but i think i got this right.. i found the spects for the 90 grain .308 caliber JHP from hornady.. created a new bullet in the program, punching in the bullet length, dimensions, and specs... used it with 30 luger, pushed up the pressure and heres what i came up with

winchester 296 powder and bring it right to 54,000 PSI, calculating in the thicker walls of starting with 9x23 brass i get

4.7" 1652fps/546ft/lbs
10" 1940fps/752ft/lbs
18" 2126fps/903ft/lbs

this is damn near standard .30 carbine ballistics out of a converted 9x19mm pistol, assuming it can handle the added bolt thrust (equal to 9x23mm).. so these numbers would be the face of a newer, hotter .30 luger, basically 7.62x25 tok ballistics

 

[barnbwt]

Be advised that quickload is not great at modeling small case volumes; I've read it's basically unsafe to use for 5.7x28, but perhaps Luger is big enough. The problem is it underestimated chamber pressure.

TCB

 

[Richard Head]

are we talking tokarev or 30 luger at this point?.. the tokarev round is easily more powerful than 30 carbine, 30 carbine is measured out of an 18 inch barrel, x25 is measured from a 4.7 inch barrel

Now you're just being ridiculous. Everybody knows the 30 carbine is more powerful than the Tokarev. Do this, take a 30 carbine case fill it to the top with powder any type of powder then dump it in a Tokarev case and tell me what you see.

 

[justin22885]

Now you're just being ridiculous. Everybody knows the 30 carbine is more powerful than the Tokarev. Do this, take a 30 carbine case fill it to the top with powder any type of powder then dump it in a Tokarev case and tell me what you see.

then it must be SERIOUSLY downloaded in all the tests ive seen.. 110 grains at 1383 is not impressive at all, even the best case scenario with the quickload calculations place it neck and neck with 7.62x25 out of equal barrel lengths, and to say 30 carbine is better because of MARGINALLY better performance AT BEST out of longer than 10 inch barrels, you would also have to ignore the fact that shorter, and shorter barrels are becoming popular, the x25 can be chambered in a handgun, and it'll feed better.. the x25 is a far better round.. use 5.56 brass and load it up to 55000 PSI and it blows 30 carbine away

but again, this isnt about 7.62x25, its about .30 luger made from 9x23 brass and loaded hotter, from the charts above the potential to match standard pressure 7.62x25 in converted handguns is there, besides, another advantage to doing this with a 30 luger besides the ease of converting existing handguns is the fact it uses common .308 cal bullets unlike the tokarev that uses what? .310? .311? you have a greater variety of barrel blanks in .308

 

[WestKentucky]

The Tok (per my understanding) can use 32 cal pistol bullets, and there are a few decent ones made for 327 fed, 32 mag, and even 32acp. Stuffing a .312 bullet into a 9x23 case that's been necked down and loaded hot seems interesting, but with such a small neck down in a small case your not going to gain a whole lot. Your basically asking for a 32naa super. Sounds neat, looks neat, but necked pistol rounds consistently flop. Ask the folks at NAA how much they have made off of the 32naa and 25naa.

 

[justin22885]

well benefit of just suping up a 30 luger is youre not really creating a new cartridge, loading died, reamers, components are already out there, another benefit is it can use the same bullets as the .30 carbine because the 30 luger is a 30 cal, and not .311-.312

problem with new cartridges is ammo is usually expensive or hard to find, if you did these same things and made a hotter version of the 7.62x25, the benefit of that is you could still load all that relatively cheap and available surplus 7.62x25 ammo

 

[Richard Head]

then it must be SERIOUSLY downloaded in all the tests ive seen.. 110 grains at 1383 is not impressive at all, even the best case scenario with the quickload calculations place it neck and neck with 7.62x25 out of equal barrel lengths, and to say 30 carbine is better because of MARGINALLY better performance AT BEST out of longer than 10 inch barrels, you would also have to ignore the fact that shorter, and shorter barrels are becoming popular, the x25 can be chambered in a handgun, and it'll feed better.. the x25 is a far better round.. use 5.56 brass and load it up to 55000 PSI and it blows 30 carbine away

So let me get this straight, you're still 100 percent certain that the Tokarev and 30 Luger cases are both larger than the 30 carbine case making them more powerful cartridges than the 30 carbine?

Please read this article then let me know if you still feel the same way. If you do then I don't know what to tell you other than good luck with your Super 30 Luger project\fantasy.
http://www.realguns.com/articles/648.htm

 

[barnbwt]

BTW, I asked around a while back about a hot-rodded 22 Johnson Spitfire shortened a bit for a more reloadable 5.7x28-beater, and was told the casing can withstand quite a bit more pressure than 40ksi. Apparently the M1 Carbine was designed pretty much with zero margin, and the brass is not the limiting factor, but since so few other platforms that aren't recoil operated handguns exist, not many folks get the chance to explore its wilder side. I was told it could do 50-55ksi easy without the primer pocket opening up (my primary worry vice 5.7x28 which has wimpy pockets), so this idea that the 30 Carbine's power is capped at whatever an 18" M1 Carbine puts out with factory ammo is incomplete.

The problem is the M1 Carbine has really crappy case-head support, and even a 45 Winchester can destroy its locking lugs. The brass itself is not notably weak; apparently even 32acp can be hot-rodded impressively, there's just not a single autoloading pistol out there that would agree with that (all are blowbacks or extremely-lightly-built recoil actions)

I think the concept is interesting, Justin. I just think it'll land somewhere between 22TCM and 9mm +P in practice, is all. It's also worth mentioning (there's a great picture in that stupid blowback vs. recoil 'debate') that a necked case not only produces increased bolt thrust by way of a larger-than-bore case head, it produces barrel thrust by way of pressure against the tapered shoulder. Barrel thrust may not impact blowback bolt weight/dynamics, but when you rigidly couple the bolt and barrel it starts loading your lugs up real fast. I've no worry a 1911/Tokarev couldn't take it, but it's worth keeping in consideration when doing your load calcs.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

i dont know, even jacked all the way up to 55,000 PSI and with a variety of powders the kinetic energy out of a 5 inch barrel is still pretty low, and it would still require an entirely custom made handguns just to fire.. i checked with multiple types of popular pistol and small rifle powders and couldnt get more than the mid 400s for kinetic energy out of a 5 inch barrel.. out of the same 5 inch barrel the 7.62x25 reaches the mid 600s for kinetic energy and i reduced the case capacity a noticeable amount to compensate for the thicker case walls of using reshaped .223 brass

out of the same 5 inch barrel, compensating for the thicker case walls of using 9x23 brass resized down to 30 luger case dimensions, youre achieving about the mid 500s for kinetic energy

so all three measured from a 5 inch barrel, all three loaded to 55,000 PSI, and case capacities diminished in both the x25 and 30 luger to compensate for thicker case walls being made from thicker brass, you get about 650ft/lbs from the tokarev, about 550ft/lbs from the 30 luger and about 450ft/lbs for the .22 spitfire.. but hey, the .22 spitfire still performs better than 5.7x28

MAYBE the spitfire would perform better if you could push it up even higher, like to 60000-62000PSI, but the only reason im holding back 7.62x25 and 30 luger to 55000 PSI is because current 9x23 chamberings in some of the guns out there now is evident that kind of bolt thrust is tolerable to some handguns, made from .223 brass either one could be pushed all the way up to 62,000 PSI as well
___

all that being said after comparing your three options for bottlenecked cartridges, compare what you have to do to get a good pistol capable of firing the three rounds stated, no only is .22 spitfire the weakest, it would also require the most elongated grip.. handguns that youre not going to find for under $1,500... the tokarev you find a few more handgun options, the CZ52, the TT33, and 1911s and glocks.. youre also going to find more guns that are already chambered for it.. the 30 luger though seems to have the best chance of being readily and easily adapted to pre-existing handguns and should work in common 9mm mags

so given the 30 luger pushed up to such high pressures falls between 22 spitfire and 7.62x25, can be chambered in the most, brass can be made from a broader range of sources, i think it would be the best option to work around.. sure its not as powerful as the tokarev at the same pressures but does it really need to be?.. is 550ft/lbs from a 5 inch barrel not enough? i think its plenty when you consider all other benefits