Jury acquits man who shot police officer

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My cousin works for Child Protective services down there somewhere... she also does probation stuff... she is looking to leave the area and go to school for a career change after what happened to a co-worker... her co-worker was conducting an interview with an irrate, angry father who's fitness as a parent was in question after abuse allegations... He threatened to shoot her(yes he had a gun) because he felt threatened by her... not physically, but he "had reasonable fear" that she may file a report to have the child removed from the house. So, is he justified? Why not?
No, he wasn't. In fact, he committed a felony under Florida law and could have been prosecuted.

Florida law requires the threat to be an imminent threat of death, serious bodily harm, or a forcible felony as defined by statute. You can't shoot someone because of something you think they might do in the future, even if they say they are going to kill you in the future. If you're not in imminent criminal danger, then you don't have justification.

Beyond that, you can shoot to stop a kidnapping, but can NOT shoot to stop someone from taking legal custody of your child in accordance with the law, even IF she were there to do that (which she wasn't).

Now, in this case (there conducting an interview or whatever), had he demanded she get out of his house immediately (thereby revoking her legal right to be there), and she resisted, he could have escalated to nonlethal force to evict her, as I understand it (i.e., grab her arm and escort her out), but he could NOT shoot her.

It sounds to me as if this guy was an idiot, even if he was just bluffing to try to get her to go away.
 
GEE, NUMEROUS BREAKINS, NO SECURITY LIGHTING (OR ELSE HE COULD HAVE SEEN IT WAS A COP, (FLASHLIGHT OR NOT) OR SECURITY DOORS, WITH AN INTERNAL GLASS DOOR SO LIMITED VISIBILITY AND OUT OF VIEW... (FOR GOBLINS TO WORK IN PRIVACY) AND HE SHOOTS SOMEONE... AFTER ONLY BUYING A GUN FOR SECURITY... SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE HE WAS LOOKING FOR REVENGE AGAINST THE BAD GUYS...
 
matthew.g.george said:
GEE, NUMEROUS BREAKINS, NO SECURITY LIGHTING (OR ELSE HE COULD HAVE SEEN IT WAS A COP, (FLASHLIGHT OR NOT) OR SECURITY DOORS, WITH AN INTERNAL GLASS DOOR SO LIMITED VISIBILITY AND OUT OF VIEW... (FOR GOBLINS TO WORK IN PRIVACY) AND HE SHOOTS SOMEONE... AFTER ONLY BUYING A GUN FOR SECURITY... SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE HE WAS LOOKING FOR REVENGE AGAINST THE BAD GUYS...

If the previous burglars had broken into his house again, he would be well within his rights to shoot them regardless. If he found out who they were and went looking for them, THAT would be revenge.

Even if he left his windows open and his door unlocked, it still doesn't give anyone the right to enter his home without permission.
 
benEzra said:
No, he wasn't. In fact, he committed a felony under Florida law and could have been prosecuted.

Florida law requires the threat to be an imminent threat of death, serious bodily harm, or a forcible felony as defined by statute. You can't shoot someone because of something you think they might do in the future, even if they say they are going to kill you in the future. If you're not in imminent criminal danger, then you don't have justification.

Beyond that, you can shoot to stop a kidnapping, but can NOT shoot to stop someone from taking legal custody of your child in accordance with the law, even IF she were there to do that (which she wasn't).

Now, in this case (there conducting an interview or whatever), had he demanded she get out of his house immediately (thereby revoking her legal right to be there), and she resisted, he could have escalated to nonlethal force to evict her, as I understand it (i.e., grab her arm and escort her out), but he could NOT shoot her.

It sounds to me as if this guy was an idiot, even if he was just bluffing to try to get her to go away.

Problem is, some people and their lawyers, percieve laws differently... The general idea of being able to use deadly force in any situation you feel "threatened" is a bad one, becasue there is not a threshhold established for action. IE I am 6' and 220 lbs... I get attacked by a woman who is 4'5", 100 pounds and armed with a fork... Can I shoot her? I am a 4' 5 " woman who is hassled by a panhandler, or an aggressive salesman at my door, can I shoot him? I know the statute in law says this, that, and the other... but realistically, how many folks are going to familiarize themselves well enough to be safe? A forcible felony? Does that apply to the shot-cop situation, as the resident felt someone was going to commit felony robbery?
 
matthew.g.george said:
GEE, NUMEROUS BREAKINS, NO SECURITY LIGHTING (OR ELSE HE COULD HAVE SEEN IT WAS A COP, (FLASHLIGHT OR NOT) OR SECURITY DOORS, WITH AN INTERNAL GLASS DOOR SO LIMITED VISIBILITY AND OUT OF VIEW... (FOR GOBLINS TO WORK IN PRIVACY) AND HE SHOOTS SOMEONE... AFTER ONLY BUYING A GUN FOR SECURITY... SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE HE WAS LOOKING FOR REVENGE AGAINST THE BAD GUYS...

And why didn't he have razor wire on his fence?!?!?! It's clearly his fault that they were tresspassing because he didn't have razor wire!!! He should have known how easy it would be to jump a 7 foot fence!!!! And why no armed guards, or attack dogs?!?!?! As a matter of fact why wasn't the fence electrified?!?!?? This guy was just asking for it. :rolleyes: :uhoh: :fire: :eek:
 
Problem is, some people and their lawyers, percieve laws differently... The general idea of being able to use deadly force in any situation you feel "threatened" is a bad one, becasue there is not a threshhold established for action.
That's why Florida law does NOT authorize you to use deadly force in any situation you feel "threatened." That locution comes from the Brady Campaign's scaremongering about the law, NOT what the law itself actually says.

I described Florida law as it is, not as the Bradyites wish to portray it.

IE I am 6' and 220 lbs... I get attacked by a woman who is 4'5", 100 pounds and armed with a fork... Can I shoot her? I am a 4' 5 " woman who is hassled by a panhandler, or an aggressive salesman at my door, can I shoot him? I know the statute in law says this, that, and the other... but realistically, how many folks are going to familiarize themselves well enough to be safe?
Depends on what kind of fork...a two-pronged meat fork is a deadly weapon...a salad fork isn't...

In your second and third example--no. Read the law; it does not change the criteria under which use of lethal force in those situations would or would not be justifiable. The new law merely says that if the panhandler pulled a knife or a gun on you, you could not be charged with murder for failing to try to outrun the attacker before defending yourself, AND if you do shoot the attacker and it is ruled justifiable, the attacker and his family cannot sue you for lawfully defending yourself.

Again, the perception the Brady Campaign and others attempted to create, versus what Florida law actually SAYS, are worlds apart.

A forcible felony? Does that apply to the shot-cop situation, as the resident felt someone was going to commit felony robbery?
I'm not sure if simple robbery is on the list of forcible felonies that allow potentially lethal force to be used; I'd have to check. I do know for a fact that armed robbery is.

In the home-defense situation, another factor comes into play, and that is the Castle Doctrine, which is law in nearly every state. The gist of that rule is, if someone is illegally trying to make a forced entry into an occupied dwelling, the homeowner is legally justified in using potentially lethal force to stop the home invasion. There is a legal presumption that if someone is illegally breaking into an occupied home, he is not there for benign purposes.

In this case, the police officer was not in the act of entering the home itself, but he was illegally inside the enclosed porch area (if I remember correctly) and had hurdled several barriers to get there, and blinded the homeowner with a light, apparently without identifying himself (he may not have even seen the homeowner due to the glare, who knows). This case could have gone either way, and had the officer been there legally, or had the officer been shot on the front porch instead of skulking around inside an enclosed area, it probably would have gone against the homeowner in this case. Had the unidentified person tried to force open the door, however, it would have been unquestionably justifiable.

Tactically, the homeowner was in a bad position, because he was illuminated by the prowler and a sitting duck, and had no way of defending both his front and back door simultaneously, and this may have played a role in this thinking. Now, if it were me, and the way our house is laid out, I would have tried to take a position of cover and wait for someone to actually try to enter the house, but not knowing this man's home layout, it's hard to say.
 
MechAg94 said:
If the previous burglars had broken into his house again, he would be well within his rights to shoot them regardless. If he found out who they were and went looking for them, THAT would be revenge.

Even if he left his windows open and his door unlocked, it still doesn't give anyone the right to enter his home without permission.

um, entered an unlocked porch...
 
matthew.g.george said:
Problem is, some people and their lawyers, percieve laws differently... The general idea of being able to use deadly force in any situation you feel "threatened" is a bad one, becasue there is not a threshhold established for action.
But there certainly IS a threshold established ... in the law. As already noted, the law provides that you can use deadly force in self defense when you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. There is no way thai can be stretched to include feeling threatened by the prospect of losing some self-respect, and thus being justified in shooting.

Are you serious about this, or are you trolling? This is not difficult to comprehend, so don't make it appear like it might be.
 
cop entered the guys enclosed porch

...seems open and shut to me.

my brother is a cop and he wouldn't climb over a wall ....probably more out of laziness:D
 
Hawkmoon said:
But there certainly IS a threshold established ... in the law. As already noted, the law provides that you can use deadly force in self defense when you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. There is no way thai can be stretched to include feeling threatened by the prospect of losing some self-respect, and thus being justified in shooting.

Are you serious about this, or are you trolling? This is not difficult to comprehend, so don't make it appear like it might be.

a man shot a police officer through a door, so apparently for some it is...(and folks are enthusiastically supporting what they see as his right to have done so on this thread...)
 
Lowy highlighted that point during closing arguments, shutting off the lights in Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Rosa Rodriguez's courtroom, then shining the bright light into the eyes of each juror for a few seconds.

It was impossible to see who was behind the flashlight.

''When someone comes into your house, over a 7-foot fence at 12:40 a.m., you don't expect it to be the police,'' said Lowy. "They were unlawfully there.''

Bravo, well lawyered. This is a good outcome, completely in line with common sense.

It's a shame that:
-the cops were too stupid to refrain from their actions that got them shot in the first place
-they were too proud to admit they made a mistake, forcing him to pay beaucoup bucks for a lawyer
-he will probably not get covered for legal fees (unless homeowners insurance pays for it?)
 
All Police Officers must now wear Glow in the Dark insignia to identify themselves. Neon signs on their head gear will be required by the end of the year.

Nope. They just have to obey the law just like the rest of us do and not enter someone's house this way. Or they may just get shot, and, according to the law and outcome of this case, justifiably so.
 
matthew.g.george said:
again his house had been burgled previously; why the french door...?:banghead:

Perhaps he can't afford a nice security door? Why not blame the thieves who broke in before for making this guy antsy? :banghead:

I should be able to have a glass door and not have to worry about burglars. If they come in I have a shotgun for that situation.
 
>a man shot a police officer through a door, so apparently for some it is...(and folks are enthusiastically supporting what they see as his right to have done so on this thread...)<

Yes... bravo, I say BRAVO! to the homeowner!

Man who has been burgalized in the past is awakened late at night by banging on his door. As he investigates (after arming himself), he sees a bright flashlight beam through his french doors... which are INSIDE HIS ENCLOSED BACK PORCH (wether the porch was locked or not is immaterial). To me, that would be enough justification to engage, especially given the possibility of home invasion. Or should Mr Citizen wait until fired upon?

I'm sorry the officer got shot (and thankful that he was wearing his vest). But the fact remains that he was WAY outside of procedure. Were my house laid out in such a fashion, and a similar situation developed, believe there would be shots fired!
 
Why not French doors?

matthew.g.george said:
again his house had been burgled previously; why the french door...?:banghead:

Thank God this is still the USA. If I have been robbed a hundred times I still have the right to have wood, french, or no doors. Any unwelcome types in my house get shot.

Please note the above post indicating that the cop had entered into an enclosed porch area. HE WAS IN THE THE HOUSE. This ends the issue for me.

The homeowners only mistake was not emptying his gun on the perp and then retreating to reload while his wife called for back-up.

Personnaly I hate it when cops shine their lights into your eys. It blinds you to who they are, what they are doing, etc. If, as in this case, I have not ID'd him as a copy BEFORE he blinds me then something bad is likely to happen.

This whole thing was unfortunate and nobody got hurt (much). The homeowner should never have gone to trial and the cop owes him an apology and new glass for the doors.
 
If the general view for you is it was okay to shoot through a door(in this case), maybe it's time to switch to squirt guns.

I hope some kid isn't desperately pounding on doors after being abducted, molested, and having escaped, goes to some of you "responsible gun owner's" homes, because you could all just shoot him or her and feel just fine about it ...
 
Steve Pearson said:
Thank God this is still the USA. If I have been robbed a hundred times I still have the right to have wood, french, or no doors. Any unwelcome types in my house get shot.

Please note the above post indicating that the cop had entered into an enclosed porch area. HE WAS IN THE THE HOUSE. This ends the issue for me.

The homeowners only mistake was not emptying his gun on the perp and then retreating to reload while his wife called for back-up.

Personnaly I hate it when cops shine their lights into your eys. It blinds you to who they are, what they are doing, etc. If, as in this case, I have not ID'd him as a copy BEFORE he blinds me then something bad is likely to happen.

This whole thing was unfortunate and nobody got hurt (much). The homeowner should never have gone to trial and the cop owes him an apology and new glass for the doors.

You come off as a real bright one...

Texas in general seems like a good place to avoid... (by the posts on here)
 
matthew.g.george said:
If the general view for you is it was okay to shoot through a door(in this case), maybe it's time to switch to squirt guns.

I hope some kid isn't desperately pounding on doors after being abducted, molested, and having escaped, goes to some of you "responsible gun owner's" homes, because you could all just shoot him or her and feel just fine about it ...


But we're NOT talking about some kid who was abducted
and molested, are we?

We're talking about police who seem to be doing their best imitation, at
the front and back door of a felonious and imminently lethal home invasion.

Bashing on the glass doors and blinding the homeowner with a 250 lumen
Sure fire light? No imminent threat? Was the flashlight hand held, or
attached to a weapon? That sounds like imminent homicidal assault to me.

They conducted what seems like a full out ASSAULT on this man's home
because somebody THOUGHT that SOMEBODY, in the
neighborhood, SOMEWHERE, threw a rock at a police car.

That is just plain insane.

It seems to me those police were already committing a felony when
they climbed over his 7ft fence.

The judge practically spoon fed them the fact that the police were unlawfully
there, the jury acquitted him. He deserves a crack at a civil suit for having
been put in that position.

*********************
 
You need to gain an appreciation of florida architecture. Most floridians live in one story conrete houses. We all have glass rear doors. They arent terribly sturdy. They are usually enclosed within concrete decks that have screened enclosures. If they arent, there is usually a pool area that is enclosed along with the rear porch.

Even before the "stand your ground" law, Florida legal precedent held that the enclosed porch areas were part of the interior of the house, and you could legally shoot intruders there. Any cop living in Florida knows not to go breaking into the porch area without a warrant or reasonable cause to believe that some sort of felony is transpiring. Why not? Because they will be mistaken for a burglar and shot, thats why.
 
matthew.g.george said:
My cousin works for Child Protective services down there somewhere... she also does probation stuff... she is looking to leave the area and go to school for a career change after what happened to a co-worker... her co-worker was conducting an interview with an irrate, angry father who's fitness as a parent was in question after abuse allegations... He threatened to shoot her(yes he had a gun) because he felt threatened by her... not physically, but he "had reasonable fear" that she may file a report to have the child removed from the house. So, is he justified? Why not?

Matthew.g.george, how could you claim that your example here and what happened to this man is comparable? Are you grasping the situation at hand? Do you have evidence, and more information than the JURY IN COURT had that acquited this man? It went to trial. It failed in court. I can see this is upsetting for you. I submit that I am sure what the home owner went through in all this from the shooting through court was very traumatic too. And guess what, he wasn't out to commit a crime. He was at home, and was in fear (and yes we can debate all we want on how much and how reasonable) assumably when he reached for his firearm that evening.

It's a tragic case no matter how you look at it, and sure there are 100 different ways to sit on the sidelines and say how better it could have been done. For example you keep claiming he should have taken off his french doors and other items. Are you privy to his economic situation? I feel for the officer that was shot, and certainly I think those officers should question the choice of using these manuevers in a lot of the cases in doing these night time, no knock entry's.
 
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