Just an observation on situational awareness...

[bogie]

I've seen a LOT of posts where someone talks about running into "goblins" or "gangsters" (which, from what I understand, means someone different from you) in the course of normal business, and they generally end with "I was surprised that nothing happened - maybe they made me" or somesuch...

Then on a post below, where the poster ran into an allegedly homeless white guy who was allegedly carrying ill-concealed, NOBODY said anything about how close he let the guy get.

Guys. I'm guessing that the majority of "goblins" or "gangsters" who've "appeared" in the aforementioned posts were merely normal folks who were just different from the poster. And the poster -should- have had nothing to fear from them. HOWEVER, it strikes me as rather hazardous that a panhandler might be armed, and allowed to get that close to a potential victim.

And for the folks who will doubtless claim that the homeless deserve boomsticks too... Sell it, go to goodwill, buy clothes, go to salvation army, take a shower, and walk around until you find a job.

 

[Mr White]

There's a lot of reasons someone's life could turn to sh**, not all of them under their control.

I'm no bleeding heart by any means, but as soon as we start down the road of 'this person can defend themself and this person cannot, based on their social status, we're taking HUGE steps backward.

I needn't remind you that 'The People' means all people, not just the nice smelling ones.

Of course criminal record and mental instability trump that, but just because a person is down on his or her luck, doesn't mean they should forfeit their right to self defense.

 

[Sato Ord]

As far as homeless goes. I see homeless vets all the time. My heart goes out to them and I always dig into my pocket and find some money for them. Most of the homeless vets I've seen carry some type of weapon and some of those weapons are guns. It's a tough world the homeless live in.

I too suffer from PTSD. I put my time in, and gave a few bits and pieces of both my physical body, and my psyche while serving this country. I have a wonderful support network that those poor homeless vets don't have. I can't help but look at them and think, "There but for the grace of God go I."

I can't see most of them holding a job even if they could get one. They are homeless by choice, but it is a choice they are forced into by their apathetic government, and their own personal demons. However, they still have the right to defend themselves against the predators in their world. Saying these unfortunates, many of whom have given much to us whether we realize it or not, should sell their means of defense and get a job is just not reasonable.

Not all homeless are vets, thank God. Of those homeless who aren't former military, many have some mental disorder that prevents them from living in our society, so they are forced to live on our society's fringe. They too, provided they are not a danger to themselves or other law abiding citizens, have the right to defend themselves with any weapon they can get. Someone who is panhandling isn't a threat because he is carrying a concealed weapon. If he wanted to use the weapon to commit a crime he probably wouldn't be panhandling he'd be sticking the gun in somebody's face.

Any time someone is confronted with a situation he has to size up that situation and make a choice. We have little to go on but experience and gut instinct. My experiences differ from everyone else's, and my gut instinct was good enough to keep me alive in some pretty bad places, so I tend to trust it.

When it's all said and done I can't sit here, especially with nothing but words on a computer screen to go on, and second guess what other people felt in a given situation. I can offer suggestions based on what I feel about how the event was described, but that is just one man's opinion and not worth a whole lot until it's me who has to make the call, so I have a little trouble just dismissing someone else's perceived threat out of hand. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

 

[marksman13]

Bogie, I'm afraid I just can't agree that the homeless should sell their means of self defense. They need it, perhaps, more than I do. That said, I don't normally indulge the beggers and peddlers that I run into. If I see a homeless vet, much like Sato Ord, I usually go out of my way to serve him the way he served me. Just my take on things.

 

[Car Knocker]

I've often wondered how many "homeless vets" are actually veterans. Going back to my time in the Service, it seems like there are more Vietnam vets panhandling on the street than there were that served during the conflict.

 

[Nate C.]

Kind of like the absence of any cooks in the Army or Navy during any given conflict, only SF personnel...

 

[bogie]

Sigh... Still don't want to let ANYONE get that close to me... Regardless if they look "clean cut" or "gangster."

 

[Sato Ord]

Sigh... Still don't want to let ANYONE get that close to me... Regardless if they look "clean cut" or "gangster."

Not to be nasty bogie, but perhaps you should. Yeah, some of them could definitely use a bath, but many of them are interesting people with interesting backgrounds.

I try and take the time to talk to the homeless who approach me if I can. I've actually been thinking of writing some of their stories down. If I do this and it sells I would donate anything I make off of such a book to the Lance Dupree Memorial Veterans Fund. (Lance was a SEAL, and my best friend's younger brother.)

A lot of these people feel better when someone takes a few minutes to listen to them. Obviously if the situation feels hokey, don't stick around. However, don't miss out on what could prove to be an interesting experience.

 

[another okie]

The word "goblin" to me means someone who has shown evil intent, not someone who looks as if dressed for a trip in a Lincoln Navigator. I don't know how to recognize a real gangster or tell them from someone who is just dressed fashionably for young men, so I generally try to avoid all persons dressed that way.

 

[bogie]

Heh... I lived in the geographical center of a major metro area for darn near 20 years... I have little desire to hang out with urban outdoorsmen. Too darn many of them are pathological liars, mentally ill, and too darn unpredictable for my tastes...

 

[Sato Ord]

Interestingly enough I had a Vet approach me this morning. I'm in Gainesville. The guy is black and about my age and height and weight. He had his VA card with him in his beat up old van, and he was nearly in tears because he was reduced to begging for work. He said he needed to earn at least eighteen bucks. I tried to give the guy a twenty dollar bill and he kept refusing unless I would put him to work to earn it. I finally stuffed it into his shirt pocket and told him the way to earn it was to pass it along to another Vet when he was more solvent.

Normally such sob stories are just a crock, but this guy would have had to be a darn good actor to pull off that scene. Add to that that he refused the money about six times before I forced it on him, and I just get the feeling he was legit.

Hope things turn around for him.

 

[buy guns]

I try and take the time to talk to the homeless who approach me if I can. I've actually been thinking of writing some of their stories down. If I do this and it sells I would donate anything I make off of such a book to the Lance Dupree Memorial Veterans Fund. (Lance was a SEAL, and my best friend's younger brother.)

Or you could just make up your own stories because that would probably be roughly the equivalent of what you would hear from them.

 

[buy guns]

Interestingly enough I had a Vet approach me this morning. I'm in Gainesville. The guy is black and about my age and height and weight. He had his VA card with him in his beat up old van, and he was nearly in tears because he was reduced to begging for work. He said he needed to earn at least eighteen bucks. I tried to give the guy a twenty dollar bill and he kept refusing unless I would put him to work to earn it. I finally stuffed it into his shirt pocket and told him the way to earn it was to pass it along to another Vet when he was more solvent.

Normally such sob stories are just a crock, but this guy would have had to be a darn good actor to pull off that scene. Add to that that he refused the money about six times before I forced it on him, and I just get the feeling he was legit.

Something I've always wondered, if a veteran is that bad off, couldn't they just re-enlist? It may not be what they want to do but surely having housing and food provided to them while earning a paycheck beats being homeless, right?

 

[230RN]

Hard to tell whether panhandlers, etc are fakes or not. I used to be real generous about giving them change, a cigarette, or whatever here in downtown Denver.

Then one day I noticed a guy with a sign on one of the I-70 offramps, where traffic has to stop for a light before proceeding to the main streets... I don't remember whether it was a Vet sign or what, but I got off the off-ramp and stopped in a restaurant which was right there. After I ordered my meal, it started to rain and I guess the guy didn't want to get wet. So he picked up his stuff and walked toward the restaurant parking lot.

He got in what looked like a brand new red shiny pickemup truck, tricked out all to Nellie, chromed lights on top, chromed step-ups, chromed toolbox, you name an aftermarket goodie, he had it... chromed, naturally.

Anecdotal, of course, but I decided that even if half of them were genuinely down on their luck, I could not tell the difference, and it was too expensive to guess, so I quit giving anythng to individuals at all, with one exception. I give anonymously to the "Jesus Saves" mission on Park Avenue in Denver, but that's it.

Besides, I'll bet most of the time their net assets are greater than mine.... theirs probably being zero, and mine... less that that, OK?

As far as situational awareness goes, I'm with Pax on that one. Too many of their approaches approximate Pax's desciption of the "Approach Phase" of an assault.

I found that store and car windows are your friends, your shadow in front of you is your friend, your ears are your friends. I no longer listen to music while out walking.

The exception to my not giving to individuals?

A guy who used to hang out on Colfax and Wadsworth. His sign said, "Need Beer. Please Help."

I just had to give him two bucks, just for the laugh I got out of it.

 

[bogie]

Some of them may be "vets," but be out on dis-or-general discharges... "Private Bubba ain't right in the head - we need to get him gone before we end up having problems," or "Private Bubba isn't anywhere - call the MPs and tell 'em to keep an eye on the gates," or "Private Bubba just flunked his whiz test."

I'll give to food pantries, etc... But I go to Sam's, and I'll buy FOOD, not junk...

 

[Notch]

And for the folks who will doubtless claim that the homeless deserve boomsticks too... Sell it, go to goodwill, buy clothes, go to salvation army, take a shower, and walk around until you find a job.

Ahhhh humanity and realism are alive and well.

Most folks are two or three paychecks away from the cardboard box.

Try to get a job with no adress or phone number.

Try to get an apartment on min wage.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Veteran or not, we're all just one dumb word, act, or thought away from the street. It doesn't even need to be our own word, act, or thought. Been there myself, and it's rough getting back.
A guy, or, for that matter, a family on the street needs at least as much of that right to self defense as anyone else.

Just learn to use some of that situational awareness and teach it to your family. Spot and avoid those wrong-feeling ones. That's not being prejudiced, just careful. You don't have to trust folks to help them.
But remember, sometimes saying 'no' is the best help.

 

[Sato Ord]

To answer the question, couldn't he just go back into the military. No. many of these guys are my age. The cut off stops long before fifty. I know it's possible, by law, for them to recall you up to age fifty-five, but they won't take you back in if you are over the age limit unless you have some really special skills that nobody else has.

Also, that doesn't take into account the disabilities these guys have. I am disabled enough that my doctors feel I have a right and need for a handicapped sticker for my car so that I can get the good parking close in and wide enough to open my car door all the way. However, I was injured while serving in places we weren't supposed to be, so I get nothing but medical benefits from the VA. I could probably push it and get more, but I can take care of myself so I don't place any more burden on the system than I have to.

I'll admit that guys who served like me are few and far between, that's why we called it special ops and not just serving our time, but they are out there. So are those poor guys who were hurt but the VA and the Army are still fighting over who is responsible for taking care of them, and will most likely continue to do so until it is too late to for the man who needs the help.

I talked with my friend this morning and he's got the backing of people like Norman Swartzkopf, and Colin Powell just to drop two names, and his group is having trouble getting help for returning Vets who are missing limbs. It's nearly impossible to get people to contribute to those they look at and perceive as "able bodied", even if those perceptions are way off base.

Now, that being said, have I given money to someone who is scamming people? Most likely. Once I hand someone a dollar, it's not my money any more and I don't care, or have any say in, what he does with it. If he is scamming folks, his Karma will catch up to him eventually. It's not my call to make, I just have to decide if I can afford a bit of spare change or not It's not for me to make judgement on the individual.

Back to the original subject, I constantly observe my surroundings, I watch every movement and nuance of body language when dealing with these people. I know when I'm in danger and when I'm not. When it's time to move on I do so. When I'm comfortable with the situation I stick around if I have the time. If my family is with me my perspective broadens accordingly, and I don't usually spend more than enough time to hand the homeless person a buck and move on. Situational awareness is the key!

Oh yeah, as for just making it up, that happens, too. However, I've found that once they realize that they have your money and that's all they are going to get they are less likely to stand there handing you a line. It takes more energy to lie than it does to tell the truth, and you can tell by watching their body language most of the time. Believe that or not, that's your option, and it's my time and money I'm spending.

 

[bogie]

That's kind of odd, because I read something a few weeks back about how prosthetic limb technology was growing by leaps and bounds, due to the number of casualties from Islamacist nutjob bombs, and the amount of money that Unca is throwing at research...

 

[Sato Ord]

That's kind of odd, because I read something a few weeks back about how prosthetic limb technology was growing by leaps and bounds, due to the number of casualties from Islamacist nutjob bombs, and the amount of money that Unca is throwing at research...

That may be, but just getting a prosthetic, which the government will pay for, isn't the end of the story when the poor guy has lost an arm, a leg, and an eye to an IED. (One of the men my friend's group is helping is in this position.) Losing one side of your body takes a whole lot more to get you back to being as close to normal as you can get than just giving you a small pension and some plastic. It takes months or years of therapy and counseling, it takes a support system consisting of loved ones, medical and psych people, and those employers in the community willing to sink the time and effort into making a position that such a person can handle and then training that person. And that just exposes the tip of the iceberg.

Each war comes with its own special problems: the Civil War was lost limbs because of mini balls, WWI was facial injuries due to trench warfare, and the list goes on. IEDs are this war's worst, though closed brain trauma from all sources is right up there on the list.

You only have to be close to a bomb going off once to know that it's the most devastating form of trauma the human being can go through. A bomb rocks your world in way that no other injury can. The blinding heat, the deafening sound, the concussion that leaves you with your nose bleeding, and unable to even think past the ringing in the middle of your skull. You're sure your eyes are bleeding, and you might even wonder at first if your head has been ripped loose from your body and this is that few seconds before your brain dies that you've heard about. Then you fade out, and when you wake up the buzzing is still there, but you can't hear anything else, and your whole body feels as though you were just thrown through a wall at high speed. And that's just the first few minutes. If you're very lucky, and you had a one foot thick wall between you and the explosive, you're still pretty much intact, your hearing will return in a couple of days, and the docs will send you back to duty in a week or so, but you never quite get over it.

I can't imagine what it would be like to go through that and then wake up in a burn unit missing limbs.

IEDs are cowards' weapons, but those are the what our enemies prefer to use.

 

[springmom]

This is a great thread....for APS. Not a lot of gun content here, and I'm betting it doesn't last long.

Why not ask the mods to move it over to APS where it can thrive?

Springmom

 

[Sato Ord]

Why not ask the mods to move it over to APS where it can thrive?

I don't know, it is kind of nice to have an open discussion like this once in a while. The mods can certainly do as they see fit. I know that I mod a forum, not gun related, and we let people ramble off topic now and again as long as the thread stays civil. It may be off topic, but such discussions can also help to give a feeling of community, allowing the posters to just chat for a bit the way real time conversation will ebb and drift.

If the mods disagree they will move it.

 

[bogie]

1) Well, I've been a bit disturbed lately by the number of "I saw a group of gangsters entering the stop'n'rob" posts, vs the complete lack of reaction to the blonde homeless dude... Just because a group of people are outside one's comfort zone doesn't make them a menace - and just because someone is -within- someone's comfort zone doesn't make them safe to be around...

One of my neighbors looks like some of those "gangsters." And I've known enough blonde crazies to have my fill. Bad guys come in all shapes and colors, and getting tunnel vision regarding race is a Bad Thing. And could either get you killed, or get the cops called on YOU, as the suspicious person hanging around the stop'n'rob... Situational awareness needs to be completely color-blind...

2) It's really, really funny, getting up and shaking it off, after the howitzer crew tells you that the best place to take the picture is just off to the side and a little in front... Didn't break the camera tho...

 

[mek42]

Sato - I've seen your responses to borderline (or, frankly, past the border) high road posts and just wanted to let you know that I think you're setting a fine high road example.

The situational awareness thing is probably a harder skill to learn than putting rounds on target - not the least of which is knowing the line between situational awareness and paranoia.

 

[UglyAllDay]

The need for safety trumps just about all basic neccessities. It's right up there with food, water and air. Do the homeless need a means to protect themselfs-just as much as anyone else. I look at the individual, his clothes, his demeanor, if I have any money myself. If I can spare some cash I will. Many of us have been in a bad spot, physically, emotionally or financially-if you can do a little good why wouldn't you?