Just having a little fun

[GunnyUSMC]

I had a Trust drawn up and sent off my paperwork for my SBR tax stamp about four months ago. While I'm waiting I decided to buy an upper for it. PSA had a 10.5 barreled upper with the front sight tower on sale for $199 with free shipping so, I ordered it. I changed the handguard and the flash hider and can't wait to see how it shoots.




I also wanted an upper with a rail and flash can so, I ordered the parts and they arrived the other day.
A friend called and said that he sent off his paperwork for his SBR tax stamp and wanted to know how had it was to build an upper. I told him to come over and I could show him. He arrived yesterday evening and we cleared of my work bench a little and started putting the upper together. He was amazed at how easy it was. The most trouble we had with the build was the dust cover. I kept dropping the E-clip.
I did realize that I didn't have a forward assist, so that gives me and excuse to place another parts order. Shipping is free on orders over $100. What else do I need to order?
Here's the lower we built last night.
I used an Anderson Upper I got from Primary Arms on sale for $49.
Davidson Defense M-Lok 12" Ultra Slim Handrail
Davidson Defense 5.56 NATO AR-15 10.5" SOCOM Barrel 1/9 Twist With Melonite Nitride Finish.
Davidson Defense Premium Melonite Nitride BCG

 

[Cannibul]

So you've got a 10.5" upper and a complete lower and haven't received your tax stamp yet?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

So you've got a 10.5" upper and a complete lower and haven't received your tax stamp yet?

As long as the two don't go together before getting approval it is legal. Kind of illustrates how stupid the law is in the first place don't it?

 

[badkarmamib]

If you don't have a pistol lower handy, i.e. a use for that upper at the time, that is considered "constructive intent", and that IS illegal, if caught.

 

[Panzerschwein]

OP, be careful what you are doing. Be sure you know EXACTLY what the rules and regulations are for SBR's. As others have noted, you might be walking on thin ice and not even know it, especially since you now have digital evidence posted on the internet for the public to see.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The lower for the SBR is at the gun shop waiting to be engraved. And no I don't have a pistol lower or care to build one. I have never cared for AR pistols and to me the arm brace pistol stocks are for getting around the SBR tax stamp.
Right now I have the two uppers wrapped up in bubble wrap and boxed up. They will come out again when the tax stamp comes in.

 

[Cannibul]

If you don't have a pistol lower handy, i.e. a use for that upper at the time, that is considered "constructive intent", and that IS illegal, if caught.

That's my understanding. Even having another complete AR rifle or carbine puts one on thin ice because it's so easy to swap uppers.

 

[MistWolf]

to me the arm brace pistol stocks are for getting around the SBR tax stamp

So? The ATF doesn't consider the brace a stock and they are not worried about it being used for "getting around the SBR tax". The brace isn't illegal, immoral, unethical or fattening, so what's there to fuss about?

 

[MistWolf]

That's my understanding. Even having another complete AR rifle or carbine puts one on thin ice because it's so easy to swap uppers.

That's not what the court said when Thompson Center won their case against the BATF

 

[agtman]

Guess I'm not getting the point here ...

I'm seeing multiple pics of the same thing, another umpteenth SBR upper. Not saying it doesn't look good or is anything other than an awesome uber-build, but - aside from tax stamp issues - where's the beef?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

There is no beef. Someone just read something on the internet and believes it to be fact.
I'm a LEO and deal with evidence guns all day, I shoot bad guy guns.
About two months ago I had to function test several guns that were picked up on a search warrant. One of the guns was an AR with a M4 buttstock and a 10.5 inch barrel. Oh! it also had a Lighting link in it. When you pulled the trigger it would empty the magazine.
The guy said that he had bought the gun off the street like it was and did not that it was illegal. Sure I believe that. The Feds would not take the case.

 

[badkarmamib]

That's not what the court said when Thompson Center won their case against the BATF

No, but, in that case, it was allowed because the owner would have both pistol and rifle furniture, thus have a legal means of assembling the components. In this case, there is only an illegal way to assemble the components.

 

[Casefull]

Thanks for pictures Gunny. Looks like we should stop reading those emails from Palmetto. lol It is hard to pass up some of the deals.

 

[MistWolf]

No, but, in that case, it was allowed because the owner would have both pistol and rifle furniture, thus have a legal means of assembling the components. In this case, there is only an illegal way to assemble the components.

You may have a complete AR rifle and a pistol upper upper because you have a legal configuration with the rifle.

If only had a rifle lower and only a pistol upper, you could find yourself in hot water because the only configuration you can assemble is an SBR

 

[MachIVshooter]

Even having another complete AR rifle or carbine puts one on thin ice because it's so easy to swap uppers.

Not true at all.

If only had a rifle lower and only a pistol upper, you could find yourself in hot water because the only configuration you can assemble is an SBR

True, although the OP having submitted the paperwork kind of eliminates the intent component of constructive possession, so a conviction would be pretty unlikely. I've also never heard of or read about a constructive possession case being successfully prosecuted where AR bits are concerned. I'm all ears if someone knows of such an instance.

Personally, I advise people to build as a pistol while awaiting their stamp. Technically speaking, with a virgin lower, that simply means leaving the stock off. Though some people are nervous about doing so, there's no actual language saying a naked standard carbine buffer tube is off limits on a pistol. That only applies to stripped lowers, though; if you bought the AR as a rifle, removing the buttstock and installing a short barrel/upper classifies it as a weapon made from a rifle, which is illegal.

 

[Cannibul]

I think we can all agree that the law, in this case, is unnecessary and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Personally I'm all in favor of having AOWs, SBRs and suppressors removed from the NFA requirements.

 

[badkarmamib]

Me too!

 

[Tirod]

I have a 16" AR and a 10.5" pistol. I am no different that thousands of others, and nobody is knocking on our door and then busting it down.

In fact, the latest case of "constructive intent" started with a gunowner who had both a rifle and pistol broken down in the same gun case. He left it in his vehicle, and after an incident his car was searched the next day where it was found. No problem yet, the guys at the local PD assembled it illegally, took photos, sent them to the ATF, and worse case yet, his lawyer was a complete ignoramus and failed to quash all that.

You have to be stopped, your property seized, and then someone really make a big deal about it for constructive possession to even have any legs in court. Who are the people who make a big deal about it? Internet posters who like doing the ATF's work pro bono because it is a big ego boost to call out someone else.

In this particular case the lower isn't even on the premises. So much for "constructive intent."

As for the OP, I agree the Brace is just a workaround. I haven't bothered with them either. I just shoot it as is - and can hit a 12" bullseye rapid fire at 25 yards no problem. I am suggesting that the Stamp and having a stock on the SBR is an expensive accessory which only aids in an incremental increase in accuracy. SBR's and AR pistols are identical in every other way, right down to using the same ammo, so having a stock can only produce some increase in accuracy - not ballistic power. They are otherwise equal.

For a short barreled rifle caliber weapon which is intended to be used for close quarters work, is that increase in accuracy worth the time and effort to set up a trust, fingerprint the inheritors, and be denied the right to take that gun into another state without the ATF's prior permission? Or even at all, some states are SBR intolerant. But the residents there can own pistols, and for the most part, SBR builders who are waiting for their stamp frequently go the pistol route and add stock or change buffer tube and add stock. Some keep pistol lowers for transportation and use in adjoining states. And I don't read or hear about them being horribly inaccurate or useless in that mode.

But, that is up to the Stamp owner to decide. For a lot of others, we are sticking with our pistols and using the $200 Stamp money, trust money, and other hassle money for other stuff. Like another firearm, improving home defenses, ammo, etc.

YMMV, its a free country.

 

[jmorris]

Get a pistol buffer tube and go shooting when the stamp comes in replace it with a stock.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I did realize that I didn't have a forward assist, so that gives me and excuse to place another parts order. Shipping is free on orders over $100. What else do I need to order?

A silencer! I have several SBR's and they are loud! Since you are joining the NFA club, you might as well jump in with both feet!

 

[kBob]

ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE LEGAL DEBATES!

Can we get back to "Just having a little fun"?

Like the looks of that upper. The reproduction three prong looks right on it as well. Don't see you breaking the steel bands on a crate of "C's" with that short lever though

When the paper work arrives let us know how much fun it is!

-kBob

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Tirod Well said.
There are those that always have to be right or show how much smarter they are then others. I was reading a post on another forum where members stated they could tell if a buffer tube was made from 7075 T6 Aluminum or 6061/T6 aluminum just by looking at them. Some stating that smoothness and color were the give away or if the inside of the tube was coated with a dry lube or not.

By the way. I do have a pistol buffer tube and could build a lower when I get home, But I will just wait for the tax stamp before I put the uppers on the lower.

I do plan on getting a suppresser. I have friends that work at two different fab shops that make them. Both have told me that they can get me a pretty good deal. Just have to wait till I have the extra cash for the tax stamp.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I was reading a post on another forum where members stated they could tell if a buffer tube was made from 7075 T6 Aluminum or 6061/T6 aluminum just by looking at them. Some stating that smoothness and color were the give away or if the inside of the tube was coated with a dry lube or not.

That's ridiculous. I work with all kinds of aluminum alloys, and unless they've been sitting out in the weather where oxidation gives tells, it's difficult to distinguish between 6061, 2024, 2219, 7050, 7075 etc. without scratch testing or other means of gauging hardness. 6061 is easy to spot when you start cutting, though! 2000 and 7000 series less so, as both dry cut really nicely.

 

[tark]

I don't know a thing about NFA weapons, but I kind of get the impression Gunny knows what he is doing. I worked for an NFA manufacturer (if that is the correct term to use, see how much I know about the subject?) for 21 years and We saw a lot of ATF people as you might expect.

My point is this, every one of the ATF people were polite and helpful. None of them had horns or scales. The almost always overlooked minor infractions. They were just trying to do their jobs which meant dealing with people who, for the most part, hated their guts. I think that most of their people are good. The scumbags are at the top.

If Gunny IS in violation of anything, the Agents I ran across would probably realize there was no criminal intent and tell him what he was doing wrong, without fines or penalties. That is MY experience with the ATF......Now I will prepare for the probable incoming firestorm of horror stories. (And assertions that I am hopelessly naive)

 

[jmorris]

My point is this, every one of the ATF people were polite and helpful. None of them had horns or scales. The almost always overlooked minor infractions.

If they are approving something that is against the law as they view it currently they just tell you what you need to do to comply.

304-616-4500 is the number to the NFA branch and you can talk to a "specialist" if they tell you "it's OK" then you can get it in writing.

No reason to rely on someone "over looking" you breaking the law, that will come back to do more harm than good.

You can speed all day long and not be pulled over but when your caught, well your caught.

That would be a misdemeanor (speeding in most cases), the other would make you a Felon.