Just how accurately can you stab?

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JShirley,

Post 25. And it was made by the person who opened this thread.

Since you are a native speaker of the english language I have trouble understanding your difficulties with this topic.

Do I know you? Have I done something to upset you?
 
metsubishi...

A Japanese weapon designed to blind an enemy, used by ninja and law officers who might want to take a prisoner alive, the Metsubishi was a small square or round box which was hollow and could be opened and filled with various powders from pepper to ground glass depending on what effect was desired.

Oh, the NINJA.

Right. Well, that changes things.

I'm sorry, I did not realise...
 
Metsubishi can refer to any distracting (by attacking the eyes) or blinding attack*. :rolleyes: And they are common in bujutsu, as opposed to sport systems. Every gyuaku-te waza, for instance, incorporates what is most commonly used as an eye strike. No ninja blinding power needed. :rolleyes: And it's convenient of you to ignore the "police" part of that statement~ a modern variation of this is still used by every Western police agency I know, and many security ones.

Mr. Voutilainen, even a cursory reading will show post 25 to say
a variation of this drill
. In other words, he tried the same drill with a foil. This thread is still not about fencing, not matter how strongly you try to make it about something else. It's not even about whether a stab through the eye can stop an attack. It's about a drill to improve targeting. You've been attempting to derail this thread since the second post.

*Here's an example, since your research skills seem shallow: Most of Hakko-ryu’s striking is done with the fingers and thumb or with extended knuckle. Metsubishi (blinding) is done with a quick snap of the wrist, so the fingers brush (read:rake!) the eyes or lip causing tearing or swelling. The thumb is used to jab (oya yubi ate, as well as nihon nukite (two-finger thrust to the eyes) and middle knuckle hitting (nakadaka ippon ken).
 
M-Cameron,

So, now you know about it? How convenient. First you mock me because you thought the idea was as valid as voodoo magic, but now, when it is clear you were wrong... you are suddenly intimately familiar with the techniques.

Very convincing.

And please. Save yourself from further embarrassment and give up. After a ten years career in security I obviously know that it is not a silver bullet, or a magic wand you can wave to make all really bad people disappear.
im....im.....im not even sure where to begin with this.......

you make it sound as though trying to deescalate a situation is some great unknown........

im pretty sure most people here consider it step 1...........im not even sure its a technique....its more of a basic human reaction


now i never claimed talking down a situation was "voodoo magic".......

what i did say was in response to your quote saying how you dont need to use a knife because you can talk your way out of any situation you would get into
"And these days I can deal with pretty much everything simply by talking my way out of the situation."

talking your way out of a situation is a good first step....but im sure most here will agree that its fool hearty to rely on it as your only form of self defense.
 
We shoot “bulls eyes” with our rifles, or at least attempt to even though a good center mass aim gives more margin for error on real game animals. The eye socket may not be the most practical target for a knife stab but if you can hit something that small you should have no trouble sticking larger targets.

A stab is nothing more than a modification of a punch and you can develop good accuracy with punches if you practice every day. I advise my students to train for accuracy by hang a tennis ball face high on a string and practice “touching” it with the first two knuckles. You don’t need to hit it hard, just a little bump will keep it swinging. I do a more advanced version sometimes with the little ball on the pull chain that hangs from the ceiling fan. I spend a good bit of time doing this while watching TV (when my wife is not home, she finds it annoying) Then I take out my knife WITHOUT OPENING IT and practice hitting that swinging ball with the hilt of my knife from different angles. Again, don’t hit it hard but I do hit that little wooden ball nearly every time. This is an accuracy drill. I train for power on an archery target. You CAN develop the ability to hit a small moving target with a pocket folder if you throw a few hundred stabs every week. This is fundamentally no different than learning how to use a key board, shoot skeet or play a video game. If you actually practice your skill will improve exponentially.
 
I have been reading this thread & it would seem to be turning into a word fight. To JV. I would use some of those skills to disengage from this one. I don't want to call names or put anyone down, I think the OP stated a point that you misunderstood. This is about beening ready for problems that are not easy to talk your way out of! If You don't share his opinion that's OK. But realize that THR is a place where these things are discussed. Speaking on the internet, you need a thick skin! Maybe that is why he was aiming at the eyes! I try to keep my skills up, and its supposed to be peaceful here. I am not in a war zone! ( Even though it seems that way sometimes! ) I keep up my training & trying new things! Hope You change some of you're thoughts on self protection, but that's up to you. Good luck, have fun, stay safe!
 
So long as we are all trying to be clear, let me say to OP Owen that just because I don't think the eye is *my* first choice for a target under duress that I am necessarily discounting the drill.

In fact, it sounds like something I might try next time I have part of a weekend to myself. I used to enjoy practicing draw-to-strike drills on small balloons, and that is much along the same lines. One can never have to much skill, regardless of how one chooses to use, or not use, that skill.
again, JMO.
 
It should go without saying that you should do your best to avoid having to cut or stab another human being but in some rare cases it is unavoidable, that is if you wish to get home alive. Using deadly force is like surgery in that it should be a last resort but if it is unavoidable it should be, like surgery, be done properly. A knife is a tool and there are proper methods and techniques for applying that tool for greatest effect. knowing where to stab and developing the skill to do so repeatedly and reliably can literally make the difference between life and death, no different than your pistol.
I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want to put my wife and family through having to bury me.
 
I have actually done that. You will find that straight thrusts are more accurate. Also try using the butt of the flashlight in a hammer motion. Short sticks are used in the same motions as a bare fist they are just make your fist a lot harder.
 
Also, anyone that has fenced remembers practicing thrusts over and over and over again at small targets. Doing such practice with a shorter blade isn't any different.

Two pieces of tape, 1/4"x1" crossed. 25 lunges hitting the center, miss one start over. Finished with that? Same thing, just thrusting. Finished with that? Same thing, but parry then riposte. Simple drills but it sticks with you, even years later. :)
 
For a few years now I've used a tennis ball on a string hanging from a tree limb. When hit you never really know where the ball will go. Gives you very little time to hit it again. especially if you are only using the point.
 
I'm in the "used to fence" crew, (Epee and Foil mostly, Saber was just too fast and painful for a big galoot like me.) A target about the size of a fist was typical for our practice.

I do some of the old fencing routines with the short and long end of a 6/7 lb steel cane ( I have two different weights). as it's always in hand.

The nice thing is that my good arm can flick the steel monstrosity around like a feather after years of carrying it, and as I can crack concrete sidewalk squares with a good tap, ( if erosion has hollowed underneath enough) 10 strikes would be... Excessive...

At least I hope so.... Frankly if someone can take more than 2 or 3 hits and stay standing I'd better have my CCW on me and the justification to use it.

My eldest whacked me at age 5... gently. The bruise across my larynx, major arteries and ear lasted for weeks.
 
I bring this up only because we need to be aware that there are psychopaths out there who know about these things.

:uhoh:

Also, unless you're a psychopath or a hardened battle-veteran with actual hand to hand combat experience, think about the differences between fine and gross motor control and what you can actually do(that is what your body will allow) when you are afraid, injured, surprised, etc.

How hard is it going to be to shoot a bullseye with your target rifle at 125 yards off a rest? When the bullseye is armed and about to shoot your bullseye, and your friend just got splattered all over you when the other guy zinged his bullseye?

So you get assaulted and knocked to the ground, can you manage to get your knife out without cutting yourself, or dropping it?

Much less get through the bad guys defenses(THEY DO DEFEND THEMSELVES) and hit a 2 by 1 inch target...

How about think about basics. A fight isn't static. Fencing isn't combat. You need to be able to get to your weapon and utilize it as effectively and efficiently as possible. Big incapacitating targets on a person are best. He or she is going to be trying to hurt you back. Or they are going to be trying to hurt you back. If its dark out, or if he's wearing sunglasses, or if-if-if... Too many variables to pick one "death touch" move.
 
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If you can hit an eye socket sized targer reliably in practice you will have no trouble hitting a big target like the throat or solar plexus under stress. If you don't practice you will do good to hit the broad side of a human under stress.
 
If you can hit an eye socket sized target reliably in practice you will have no trouble hitting a big target like the throat or solar plexus under stress. If you don't practice you will do good to hit the broad side of a human under stress.
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The only problem with the real world on the street is, theory and practice go out the window. Trying to hit that small target while he's swinging back with whatever blade he's tried to mug you with, while his buddy is stabbing you in the back or side, depending on which way your facing, is just going to get you killed in a real situation. You will be facing at least two of them.

Have any of you people ever lived in a big city and dealt with real seasoned street criminals before?

They've practiced this stuff even in jail. They're fast, desperate, and they ain't about to give you a chance to pull a knife.

This whole thread has been from never-never land.

You never stand and fight, but keep moving in retreat and slash at any arm or weapon holding hand that comes near you, but just keep moving back out of range. The lookout will be jumping into the fight, so keep moving to keep him in your view keep moving. It's going to take place so fast, you won't believe it. Keep to very gross motor movements, and run like hell when you get the chance, while yelling. They don't like attention. If you can retreat for a few seconds while yelling, and keep a retreat going, they will probably give it up, and go look for an easier mark. The predators like to make a fast kill and get out of there, not hang around in a street fight. But they will fight if they have to, like when some misguided keyboard commando pull s knife and tries to kill them. Rule of the street is, when somebody tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back. By engaging in a knife fight, you've given up the main advantage you had, that of being a mark that is escaping. While you try to stab him in the eye, where do you think his knife is going?

You're not Rambo or some idiot in a V for Vendetta mask. You're a citizen going about your business and just defending yourself. The whole idea is to make an opening to dis-engage, not take part in a knife fight. Maybe you haven't heard, the winner in a knife fight is the guy who only goes to the ER instead of the morgue. Or maybe goes to the morgue last.

Even if you get away with it, legally, go and kill somebody, even a low life street criminal with a record as long as your arm, who has done serious time, the civil lawsuit from his family will grind you down for years to come. They'll have relatives coming out of the woodwork giving testimony how "he was a good boy, he sang in the church choir when he was 12 years old" and other such nonsense. Even if you win the lawsuit, the legal defense will break you, and you'll need a second mortgage on your home to pay the lawyers.

Take out somebody with a nice clean stab through an eye and you don't have a single cut on you, see what happens. You ain't gonna be in Kansas anymore Toto. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, or what kind of values you have, this ain't the wild west, you''re not the hero, and some political aspiring assistant D.A. is going to make the start of his career with you. Thats a fact. Kill somebody in todays society, and you have trouble like you won't believe, even if you are in the right. If you have a retirement fund now, you won't when they get done with you. But nobody is going to feel bad about some punk with some cut motor tendons in his wrist or forearm, or some broken bones in his hand. In fact, he'll loose so much face they'll laugh him off the street. You don't have to kill someone to stop an assault. In fact, in todays world, it's the last thing you want to do.

Some of you have to put your adolescent day dreams aside and live in the real world.

This whole thread has been so low road, I'm surprised it lasted.

Carl.
 
carl.......i honestly dont belive he means for you to practice stabbing in the eye.......i think the idea was to gain practice stabbing for a small target......

They've practiced this stuff even in jail. They're fast, desperate, and they ain't about to give you a chance to pull a knife.
so because the stereotypical bad guy is a hardened con with years of knife fighting experience.......you should just give up any hope of defense.....?

what about just a regular thug who decides hes going to try stabbing someone.......

not every bad guy who uses a knife is an experiences ex con, ex Filipino knife fighting champion............most often its just a thug with a knife.....


Keep to very gross motor movements, and run like hell when you get the chance, while yelling.
assuming you CAN run away, then yes, that is always the best option.......however, what if you have injuries, or simply cant out run your attacker.......you may actually have to fight someone.....



Even if you get away with it, legally, go and kill somebody, even a low life street criminal with a record as long as your arm, who has done serious time, the civil lawsuit from his family will grind you down for years to come. They'll have relatives coming out of the woodwork giving testimony how "he was a good boy, he sang in the church choir when he was 12 years old" and other such nonsense. Even if you win the lawsuit, the legal defense will break you, and you'll need a second mortgage on your home to pay the lawyers.

so you are advocating not defending yourself.....for fear that the guys family might sue you.......hell, ide rather they have my money than my Hospital or funeral home.
 
Tip: Don't thrust with the blade in the vertical plane. Hold it in the horizontal - you'll be more accurate and have better odds.
 
carl.......i honestly dont belive he means for you to practice stabbing in the eye.......i think the idea was to gain practice stabbing for a small target......

Quote:
They've practiced this stuff even in jail. They're fast, desperate, and they ain't about to give you a chance to pull a knife.
so because the stereotypical bad guy is a hardened con with years of knife fighting experience.......you should just give up any hope of defense.....?

what about just a regular thug who decides hes going to try stabbing someone.......

not every bad guy who uses a knife is an experiences ex con, ex Filipino knife fighting champion............most often its just a thug with a knife.....


Quote:
Keep to very gross motor movements, and run like hell when you get the chance, while yelling.
assuming you CAN run away, then yes, that is always the best option.......however, what if you have injuries, or simply cant out run your attacker.......you may actually have to fight someone.....



Quote:
Even if you get away with it, legally, go and kill somebody, even a low life street criminal with a record as long as your arm, who has done serious time, the civil lawsuit from his family will grind you down for years to come. They'll have relatives coming out of the woodwork giving testimony how "he was a good boy, he sang in the church choir when he was 12 years old" and other such nonsense. Even if you win the lawsuit, the legal defense will break you, and you'll need a second mortgage on your home to pay the lawyers.
so you are advocating not defending yourself.....for fear that the guys family might sue you.......hell, ide rather they have my money than my Hospital or funeral home.
__________________

So nice of you take the whole post out of context.

I never said not to defend oneself, just that it's not advisable to take the road the OP is advocating. The whole 'stab in the eye' thing is teenage mall ninja stuff. Have any of you ever stabbed another person?

When defending yourself, the bad guy with a knife can't harm you unless he brings the knife hand into your space. You don't have to go into his. IN fact, going into his ground with a knife is plain stupid. You leave yourself open to getting a knife in your gut or your own arm slashed. Make him come to you, then cut or smash the knife hand, then get the heck out of there. There's nothing to be gained by engaging in a knife fight with some street criminal who may not even give a ---- if he dies. If you can wound, disable, and escape in that opening, why would you not leave the fight area? Aside from macho BS of which gets more people killed than anything else but cigarettes or drunk driving.

Read my post carefully.

Killing someone is just what you do not want to do in todays society. If you think otherwise, then do what ever you wish. Just make sure your home and all assets are in your wifes name, so your kids will get some kind of estate, and your wife will have a place to live. Try to think a little bit further than your own ego. Surviving a street fight is not about wining, it's about going on with your life. You create an opening to retreat, and you do just that, and go on with your life, and go home to your wife and kids.

If you wish to put word in my mouth, or blather on about immature attitudes, then you just go on. This thread has dissolved into idiocy.

Carl.
 
While the original post was grossly hyperbolic, the valuable point of this messy thread is that you need to practice with the defensive tools that you intend to carry and that you need to practice a lot at hitting small targets if you want to be able to hit when you actually defend yourself.
 
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