Just how BAD is the 30/30 ?

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Shawnee

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Hi All...

Am starting this thread in order to not "hijack" the recent thread about grizzlys and 30/30s. This is about the 30/30 and DEER.

For starters, let's put forth a few Hunting Reality Checks.

1. A whale of a lot of deer are shot at 200yds. or less. Just ask any bowhunter or muzzleloader hunter or shotgun hunter. Ohio alone (no rifles allowed) accounts for about 200,000 per year.

2. With factory-issue, or relatively inexpensive, field-usable iron sights the effective shooting range under field conditions for any hunter is 150-200yds. at best no matter what caliber they are using. That is due simply to the limitations of the human eye. If a name is printed on a 100yd. target in letters 1 inch high, neither I - nor you - can read it with our naked eye. And at 200 yds. neither of us can read it if the letters are four inches high.

3. Few deer stand facing left and perfectly broadside on perfectly level ground perfectly backlighted by white paper.

4. Even fewer people get to take along a bench, sandbags, swivel chair and perfect light conditions when they go deer hunting.

5. Remembering the anatomy of deer and the amount of a target covered up by the width of the crosshairs, a rifle/cartridge that groups into a 6-inch circle at 200 yards is - under field conditions - in fact, every bit as effective for deer as a rifle that will group into into 1/10th of an inch at 200 yds.

6. For every citizen who gets to go hunting for game bigger than deer there are a couple thousand who never will.

7. (For those who are in love with foot-pounds of energy) A well-placed 240gr. bullet fired from a .44 magnum handgun will kill a deer at 50yds. every time. I can personally vouch for that, as can hundreds of handgun hunters. The foot-pounds of energy of that bullet at that range is 812 according to Hornady.

OK... we are going to fire four different rifle & bullet combinations.

1. 30/30 with the old 150gr. round nose bullet

2. 30/30 with the new 160gr "Levervolution" bullet

3. .243 with the 87gr. BTHP (I've killed a ton of deer with it). (Actually... closer to more than two tons now that I think about it.)

4. 30/06 with the 165gr BTSP

First - let's look at bullet flight with that 150 yd. "zero". Here we go... everyone got their earphones on ? Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang

At 50 yds...

1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.0 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is .7 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .3 inch high

"best/worst" difference is 0.7 inch. at 50 yds. Insignificant


At 100 yds.

1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.6 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 1.2 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .8 inch high

"best/worst" difference is 1.1 inch at 100 yds. Insignificant


At 200 yds.

1. the 30/30 round nose is 4.4 inches low
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 3.2 inches low
3. the 243 BTHP is 1.6 inches low
4. the 30/06 BTSP is 2.0 inches low.

"best/worst" difference at 200 yds is 2.8 inches at 200 yds. Insignificant

What we have just learned is that - out to 200 yards under field conditions we can hit a deer just as well and just as easily with a 30/30 as we can with a .243 or a 30/06.... even from a stand. No "ifs", "ands", or "buts". Period.

But what about those pesky Foot-Pounds ? Well - the dowdy old 150gr 30/30 bullet is the weakest of all and it still has 832 ft/lbs at 200 yards. -slightly more than that .44 Magnum at 50 yds.

I don't have a handy way to calculate and compare the recoil figures for the above loads but I am pretty certain the recoil of the 30/30 is closer to that of the .243 than to the 30/06.

I do know from reloading for, and shooting, several assorted 30/30s (mostly Marlin 336s) that it is quite common to shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yds. from a bench and 2 inch groups off shooting sticks. I had the great pleasure to shoot a Remington 788 bolt-action that would group handloads (150gr. PSP) into a 1-inch circle at 100 yds just as long as you wanted to sit there and shoot. The owner of that rifle and I have both shot 3/4" groups with it.

Though I am thoroughly convinced the .243 Winchester is the closest thing to the mythical "perfect deer caliber" - I stand and plead Guilty to doting shamelessly upon the "Thutty-Thutty". I don't know exactly how much I would pay for a good bolt-action 30/30 but it I doubt if I can afford to find out. One of the old Remington 788s or a Remington Model 7 in 30/30 (if they made 'em), or the Ruger M77 International would be, to me, one of the absolute, very best, I'll-break-your-arm-if-you-touch-it deer rifles a deer-hunting trigger-jerk like me could want.

And all I can say to all the gunwriters, gunzine-addicts and other nitwits who pooh-pooh Mr. Winchester's "Thutty-Thutty" is - I would sure like to buy you for what you know and sell you for what you think you know. :neener:

P.S. Sorry Gents - it is not my intention to malign, or even pass judgement on, the use of scopes with a 30/30. Scopes are indeed Good Stuff. Nor would I ever advocate using "irons" at 200yds. Choice of sighting equipment is completely open because, either way, there is no other caliber that is significantly superior to the 30/30 out to 200 yds. None. And a range of 200 yds. accounts for a few million deer per year in this country.
 
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In fact, the 30-30 has accounted for more deer than any other cartridge. That says a lot to me.

.02.

U.C.
 
well... lots of info there, and an entertaining post - thanks for that!

couple things...
- your post completely discounts scopes.
- your ballistic tables assume the bullet (group) will be perfect.

the under 200 yard thing works for iron sight hunters. but, if you toss a good scope on, why be restricted? also, i think that most hunters, even w/ scopes, shoot mostly at objects under 200 yards. this is because of glass. either they do not know how to use glass, don't have good glass, or don't understand holdover w/ their scopes, reticle subtention, what have you.

for accuracy... i am chasing a unicorn w/ my marlin 336 right now, trying to see just how accurate it is, what is the potential in a lever gun, and if it is worth the effort. i have not drawn any conclusions yet, but am so far finding the gun just about moa capable out to 200 yards from a bench (i have not yet broken moa consistently, but i have shot a couple groups at that range that have almost made 1" at 200). on a side note, cleaning a micro-groove rifle sucks, the marlin's trigger sucks, and i am not happy about the 2-piece firing pin. i am having about a 15% failure to fire rate, and while i do not know for sure yet, i suspect the 2-piece firing pin is the culprit (if i re-cock and shoot again, i am having a 100% fire rate).

anyway, overall i agree w/ your post, except for deer-killing at 200 yards w/ the 30-30 - i don't doubt that it can be/has been done a lot, but not sure i buy into the 30-30 being a legitimate 200+ yard deer cartridge. once i get the kinks worked out of my loads, i'll put the chrony up at the target and see what is really going on. experience has taught me that ballistic tables are rarely accurate, unless you developed them yourself from your own gun (generally they seem amazingly optimistic). and some of that is due to the complete inaccuracy of bc's being able to be predicted.
 
30-30 bolt action

HPIM0055.JPG

HPIM0056.JPG


That's my Springfield (Savage) bolt gun with original side-mount/over the bore scope mount and TC 4x scope.

Make and offer :evil:
 
There are advantages to scopes beyond just magnification. They allow you to aim better -- because the crosshairs and target are in the same focal plane. With open sights, you have three different focal planes, rear sight, front sight, and target. With aperture sights, you have two -- front sight and target.

Scopes also allow you to see through brush. I have poked many a shot through a hole in the brush because it was clear in the scope. With irons, I wouldn't have tried it.

So I don't knock the guy who mounts a scope on his .30-30. That said, my old Model 94 Winchester wears a Williams 5d peep -- and to show you how old it is, that sight actually cost $5 when I bought it.

The Model 94 is a great saddle gun -- the Marlin 336 a bit less so because of the bulbous fore end. The lever guns carry well with one hand. The recoil is mild. And they do the job.
 
Interesting reading on the 30-30 and based on your data is probably correct. I dont think the 30-30 would be my choice of rifle if the majority of shots were over 100 yrds though. I may stand corrected but the 30-30 has been primarily chambered for lever action hammer guns . With that in mind another statistic might be how many accidental discharges are accredited to that type of action. I know this is deviating for the original topic, but IMO one of the most unsafe actions ever placed on the market. It has taken a lot of deer granted. I wonder how many hunters or bystanders it has claimed?
 
Interesting reading on the 30-30 and based on your data is probably correct. I dont think the 30-30 would be my choice of rifle if the majority of shots were over 100 yrds though. I may stand corrected but the 30-30 has been primarily chambered for lever action hammer guns . With that in mind another statistic might be how many accidental discharges are accredited to that type of action. I know this is deviating for the original topic, but IMO one of the most unsafe actions ever placed on the market. It has taken a lot of deer granted. I wonder how many hunters or bystanders it has claimed?
 
Just how is a lever action rifle any more unsafe than any other type?
Click to expand...

The only thing I can think of is the lack of a firing pin safety. With a round in the chamber and the hammer forward, hitting the hammer will cause the gun to fire.

Most lever guns have a 'half cock' feature to help prevent this.

Target shooters can simply just not chamber a round until they are shooting. I would assume most hunters don't want to be racking their guns when the big one strolls on it.

Either way, those who were harmed by a bullet from a lever gun is the fault of the gun owner, not the gun. Bad gun handling is probably to blame.
 
I think

your last sentence nailed it. The lever action is not any more unsafe than any other type of action - the half cock notch prevents the hammer from falling - I challenge anyone purporting anything different to show me any actual statistics, etc. to back up the claim. Old wive's tail.
 
Theres no doubt that .30-30 is a fine caliber for deer.

The only reason I dont use .30-30 is because my favorite rifle happens to be chambered in .30-06. In my opinion, fit and feel of a rifle is more important than the caliber (within reason).
 
The only thing I can think of is the lack of a firing pin safety. With a round in the chamber and the hammer forward, hitting the hammer will cause the gun to fire.

Most lever guns have a 'half cock' feature to help prevent this.
Click to expand...

Well, for better or worse many lever makers now include a safety bar that blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin so that's not really an issue on newly made rifles.
 
Many of my Czech friends (lots of 'em in Texas) still have enough accent to call it a "turdy-turdy". ROFL Just thought I'd toss that in.

First off, I'm just as well off with my turdy turdy as with my .308 when I'm hunting my place and my turdy turdy is a handgun. I cannot see more'n about 150 yards in any given direction. I've shot ONE deer there at 150 yards, the rest inside 100. One coyote I took on the ranch next door with my .308 at about 250 yards. But, he don't count since I wouldn't shoot a deer across the fence.

I've killed five deer with the 12" turdy turdy and none went more'n 25 yards. Three were DRT. I've killed one deer with my old M340 Savage and 4x steel body old K4 Weaver. That one was about 50 yards still hunting off hand DRT. I can definitely state that the gun kills deer pretty well dead on the spot. That's the point, right????

I think what has made the caliber so popular over the years, though, is not the cartridge, but the fine, handy little utility lever carbines it was chambered in. It is simply a woodsman's dream to tote and use afield. And, back in the day, .30-30 ammo was cheap and available everywhere. .30-06, .270, stuff like that were hit and miss at your back woods supply store. Everyone had and used the little carbine. Not so much anymore, but the gun is still a handy little fart for a backwoodsman. I don't know that it has lost a lot of appeal in that regard.
 
I don't think it has. Its still regarded, at least where I'm from, as pretty much the standard from which you might depart given your preferences.

I just bought a 30.30 lever action rifle. I'll hunt with it next season (08) for the first time and I can't wait. No scope either.
 
I'd wager...

It has taken a lot of deer granted. I wonder how many hunters or bystanders it has claimed?
Click to expand...

No more or less than bolt guns or pump guns over the last 100+ years. Trust me, if the levergun was such an accident waiting to go off, we'd hear about it in spades on the panic-stricken gun forums. Numbers, please.

Half-cock notches and inertial firing pins on leverguns have worked just as the inventors designed them. Negligent Discharges are the result of a chain of events, and if you're dropping a levergun on the hammer hard enough to break through the half-cock notch and accelerate the inertial firing pin with the muzzle pointed at your person, then you're probably not long for this world, anyway.

I'm reminded of the recent story where a mom shot her son while manipulating the safety on her Remington 700. The safety may have had issues, but why was the muzzle pointed at the boy? :scrutiny:
 
The .30-30 is still accounting for lots of Deer, and Antelope, and Elk. We still sell a lot of new .30-30 rifles, and hunters are filling their tags with them every year. Last year I killed an Elk with one at just over 200 yards with my .30-30 using the new LEVERevolution ammo. Killed it Dead Right There, penetrated perfectly and destroyed the heart completely.
I keep telling people that you don't need an Ultra Mag for Elk.
 
My grandfather had a Remington Pump in .30 Remington, which is ballistically equivalent to the .30 WCF.

With only the factory peep sights mounted, he killed several deer every year for many, many decades. He hunted in the thick woods and probably never got a shot over 50 yards. He said that he could have got a lever action for $3.00 dollars less when he bought it.

During the depression, it fed his family and guarded his still.

I have killed several deer with a 760 Remington pump in .30-06, but never at a range of more than 75 yards. Fast follow up shots are not critical in the woods and swamps where I hunt, you only get one shot...

I just can't imagine that a .30-30 would not have killed every deer I have seen in the woods.
 
ANOTHER one of the really great things about the "Thutty-Thutty" - at least back in the 80s and early 90s when I got most of my experience with it - is/was that the everyday, garden-variety factory 150gr. ammo that sold at Wallymart etc. was almost always quite accurate. The "cheap stuff" in that caliber was often so good (especially Federal in the old red box) that there wasn't much accuracy to be gained (or needed) by reloading for it. But for the guy who wanted to reload it - brass could be had by the bucketful for free at any public range in The Republic.

:cool:
 
I don't know exactly how much I would pay for a good bolt-action 30/30 but it I doubt if I can afford to find out. One of the old Remington 788s or a Remington Model 7 in 30/30 (if they made 'em), or the Ruger M77 International would be, to me, one of the absolute, very best, I'll-break-your-arm-if-you-touch-it deer rifles a deer-hunting trigger-jerk like me could want.
Click to expand...

I happen to know where there's a 788 30/30 in very good shape if you're interested - part of an estate sale.
 
For me my hunting rifles are 30-06, 303 Brit, 7.62x54R or 8mm. I grew up in OHIO and the caliber of choice was 12GA.
 
I remember .30-30 at Wallyworld for under 7 bucks a box. It's a little higher now, but still cheaper than everything else other than perhaps 7.62x39 ball.

I don't think the M7 was ever made in .30-30, but the 788 surely was. I chose the Savage 340 because it was cheaper. If I'd gone 788, I'd probably gotten a .308. This was late 60s. I sold the 340 to my uncle, but it was a REAL shooter! I probably should have kept it, but I was in a financial bind at the time selling stuff to pay off debt. Now, I have a M7, and it's a .308. Just think of it as a .30-30 on steroids. :D Makes more sense to me, anyway, to get a bolt gun in a rimless configuration. That 340 had a rather weird bolt head to deal with the rimmed rounds. It came in .30-30 and .225 Winchester (an odd rimmed .22 round that was pretty hot). It had these weird extractor ears on it that grabbed the rim. I have fired 788s in .22-250, .243, and .308 and they all had the normal recessed Remington bolt head IIRC. Never seen one in .30-30. I would think the M7's action might be a little too short to adapt to .30-30. It's based on the old M600 Mohawk which was based on the XP pistol actions. It has a very short throw.
 
Just shot a 30-30 today, for the first time. Ok, I was punching holes in paper not deer. The rifle was a Marlin 336 with microgroove barrel. The recoil was light and that is just fine.

The group moved four inches down as the barrel got hot. However the group size was good, between two and three inches. I would prefer a zero that did not wander.

From reloading data, the 170 grain bullet I was shooting should have been going 2200 fps. That is certainly adequate for deer.

I like the rifle more than the cartridge, at 100 yards, I probably would be using my M1894 in 44 Magnum.
 
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