Shawnee
member
Hi All...
Am starting this thread in order to not "hijack" the recent thread about grizzlys and 30/30s. This is about the 30/30 and DEER.
For starters, let's put forth a few Hunting Reality Checks.
1. A whale of a lot of deer are shot at 200yds. or less. Just ask any bowhunter or muzzleloader hunter or shotgun hunter. Ohio alone (no rifles allowed) accounts for about 200,000 per year.
2. With factory-issue, or relatively inexpensive, field-usable iron sights the effective shooting range under field conditions for any hunter is 150-200yds. at best no matter what caliber they are using. That is due simply to the limitations of the human eye. If a name is printed on a 100yd. target in letters 1 inch high, neither I - nor you - can read it with our naked eye. And at 200 yds. neither of us can read it if the letters are four inches high.
3. Few deer stand facing left and perfectly broadside on perfectly level ground perfectly backlighted by white paper.
4. Even fewer people get to take along a bench, sandbags, swivel chair and perfect light conditions when they go deer hunting.
5. Remembering the anatomy of deer and the amount of a target covered up by the width of the crosshairs, a rifle/cartridge that groups into a 6-inch circle at 200 yards is - under field conditions - in fact, every bit as effective for deer as a rifle that will group into into 1/10th of an inch at 200 yds.
6. For every citizen who gets to go hunting for game bigger than deer there are a couple thousand who never will.
7. (For those who are in love with foot-pounds of energy) A well-placed 240gr. bullet fired from a .44 magnum handgun will kill a deer at 50yds. every time. I can personally vouch for that, as can hundreds of handgun hunters. The foot-pounds of energy of that bullet at that range is 812 according to Hornady.
OK... we are going to fire four different rifle & bullet combinations.
1. 30/30 with the old 150gr. round nose bullet
2. 30/30 with the new 160gr "Levervolution" bullet
3. .243 with the 87gr. BTHP (I've killed a ton of deer with it). (Actually... closer to more than two tons now that I think about it.)
4. 30/06 with the 165gr BTSP
First - let's look at bullet flight with that 150 yd. "zero". Here we go... everyone got their earphones on ? Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang
At 50 yds...
1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.0 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is .7 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .3 inch high
"best/worst" difference is 0.7 inch. at 50 yds. Insignificant
At 100 yds.
1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.6 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 1.2 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .8 inch high
"best/worst" difference is 1.1 inch at 100 yds. Insignificant
At 200 yds.
1. the 30/30 round nose is 4.4 inches low
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 3.2 inches low
3. the 243 BTHP is 1.6 inches low
4. the 30/06 BTSP is 2.0 inches low.
"best/worst" difference at 200 yds is 2.8 inches at 200 yds. Insignificant
What we have just learned is that - out to 200 yards under field conditions we can hit a deer just as well and just as easily with a 30/30 as we can with a .243 or a 30/06.... even from a stand. No "ifs", "ands", or "buts". Period.
But what about those pesky Foot-Pounds ? Well - the dowdy old 150gr 30/30 bullet is the weakest of all and it still has 832 ft/lbs at 200 yards. -slightly more than that .44 Magnum at 50 yds.
I don't have a handy way to calculate and compare the recoil figures for the above loads but I am pretty certain the recoil of the 30/30 is closer to that of the .243 than to the 30/06.
I do know from reloading for, and shooting, several assorted 30/30s (mostly Marlin 336s) that it is quite common to shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yds. from a bench and 2 inch groups off shooting sticks. I had the great pleasure to shoot a Remington 788 bolt-action that would group handloads (150gr. PSP) into a 1-inch circle at 100 yds just as long as you wanted to sit there and shoot. The owner of that rifle and I have both shot 3/4" groups with it.
Though I am thoroughly convinced the .243 Winchester is the closest thing to the mythical "perfect deer caliber" - I stand and plead Guilty to doting shamelessly upon the "Thutty-Thutty". I don't know exactly how much I would pay for a good bolt-action 30/30 but it I doubt if I can afford to find out. One of the old Remington 788s or a Remington Model 7 in 30/30 (if they made 'em), or the Ruger M77 International would be, to me, one of the absolute, very best, I'll-break-your-arm-if-you-touch-it deer rifles a deer-hunting trigger-jerk like me could want.
And all I can say to all the gunwriters, gunzine-addicts and other nitwits who pooh-pooh Mr. Winchester's "Thutty-Thutty" is - I would sure like to buy you for what you know and sell you for what you think you know.
P.S. Sorry Gents - it is not my intention to malign, or even pass judgement on, the use of scopes with a 30/30. Scopes are indeed Good Stuff. Nor would I ever advocate using "irons" at 200yds. Choice of sighting equipment is completely open because, either way, there is no other caliber that is significantly superior to the 30/30 out to 200 yds. None. And a range of 200 yds. accounts for a few million deer per year in this country.
Am starting this thread in order to not "hijack" the recent thread about grizzlys and 30/30s. This is about the 30/30 and DEER.
For starters, let's put forth a few Hunting Reality Checks.
1. A whale of a lot of deer are shot at 200yds. or less. Just ask any bowhunter or muzzleloader hunter or shotgun hunter. Ohio alone (no rifles allowed) accounts for about 200,000 per year.
2. With factory-issue, or relatively inexpensive, field-usable iron sights the effective shooting range under field conditions for any hunter is 150-200yds. at best no matter what caliber they are using. That is due simply to the limitations of the human eye. If a name is printed on a 100yd. target in letters 1 inch high, neither I - nor you - can read it with our naked eye. And at 200 yds. neither of us can read it if the letters are four inches high.
3. Few deer stand facing left and perfectly broadside on perfectly level ground perfectly backlighted by white paper.
4. Even fewer people get to take along a bench, sandbags, swivel chair and perfect light conditions when they go deer hunting.
5. Remembering the anatomy of deer and the amount of a target covered up by the width of the crosshairs, a rifle/cartridge that groups into a 6-inch circle at 200 yards is - under field conditions - in fact, every bit as effective for deer as a rifle that will group into into 1/10th of an inch at 200 yds.
6. For every citizen who gets to go hunting for game bigger than deer there are a couple thousand who never will.
7. (For those who are in love with foot-pounds of energy) A well-placed 240gr. bullet fired from a .44 magnum handgun will kill a deer at 50yds. every time. I can personally vouch for that, as can hundreds of handgun hunters. The foot-pounds of energy of that bullet at that range is 812 according to Hornady.
OK... we are going to fire four different rifle & bullet combinations.
1. 30/30 with the old 150gr. round nose bullet
2. 30/30 with the new 160gr "Levervolution" bullet
3. .243 with the 87gr. BTHP (I've killed a ton of deer with it). (Actually... closer to more than two tons now that I think about it.)
4. 30/06 with the 165gr BTSP
First - let's look at bullet flight with that 150 yd. "zero". Here we go... everyone got their earphones on ? Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang
At 50 yds...
1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.0 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is .7 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .3 inch high
"best/worst" difference is 0.7 inch. at 50 yds. Insignificant
At 100 yds.
1. the 30/30 round nose is 1.6 inch high
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 1.2 inch high
3. the .243 BTHP is .5 inch high
4. the 30/06 BTSP is .8 inch high
"best/worst" difference is 1.1 inch at 100 yds. Insignificant
At 200 yds.
1. the 30/30 round nose is 4.4 inches low
2. the 30/30 Leverlution is 3.2 inches low
3. the 243 BTHP is 1.6 inches low
4. the 30/06 BTSP is 2.0 inches low.
"best/worst" difference at 200 yds is 2.8 inches at 200 yds. Insignificant
What we have just learned is that - out to 200 yards under field conditions we can hit a deer just as well and just as easily with a 30/30 as we can with a .243 or a 30/06.... even from a stand. No "ifs", "ands", or "buts". Period.
But what about those pesky Foot-Pounds ? Well - the dowdy old 150gr 30/30 bullet is the weakest of all and it still has 832 ft/lbs at 200 yards. -slightly more than that .44 Magnum at 50 yds.
I don't have a handy way to calculate and compare the recoil figures for the above loads but I am pretty certain the recoil of the 30/30 is closer to that of the .243 than to the 30/06.
I do know from reloading for, and shooting, several assorted 30/30s (mostly Marlin 336s) that it is quite common to shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yds. from a bench and 2 inch groups off shooting sticks. I had the great pleasure to shoot a Remington 788 bolt-action that would group handloads (150gr. PSP) into a 1-inch circle at 100 yds just as long as you wanted to sit there and shoot. The owner of that rifle and I have both shot 3/4" groups with it.
Though I am thoroughly convinced the .243 Winchester is the closest thing to the mythical "perfect deer caliber" - I stand and plead Guilty to doting shamelessly upon the "Thutty-Thutty". I don't know exactly how much I would pay for a good bolt-action 30/30 but it I doubt if I can afford to find out. One of the old Remington 788s or a Remington Model 7 in 30/30 (if they made 'em), or the Ruger M77 International would be, to me, one of the absolute, very best, I'll-break-your-arm-if-you-touch-it deer rifles a deer-hunting trigger-jerk like me could want.
And all I can say to all the gunwriters, gunzine-addicts and other nitwits who pooh-pooh Mr. Winchester's "Thutty-Thutty" is - I would sure like to buy you for what you know and sell you for what you think you know.
P.S. Sorry Gents - it is not my intention to malign, or even pass judgement on, the use of scopes with a 30/30. Scopes are indeed Good Stuff. Nor would I ever advocate using "irons" at 200yds. Choice of sighting equipment is completely open because, either way, there is no other caliber that is significantly superior to the 30/30 out to 200 yds. None. And a range of 200 yds. accounts for a few million deer per year in this country.
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