Just put my hand on my pistol!

[Owen Sparks]

...And this sudden (but routine) adrenaline dump is one of the reasons that cops have an average life expectancy about a decade shorter than the rest of the population. Hard on the heart.

I don't know about that, some people are "adrenaline junkies" who jump out of airplanes, bungee jump and and do all sorts of crazy scary stuff but I never heard that it damages their hearts.

 

[beatledog7]

JustinJ,

My comment in Post #5 was not meant to open a debate on caliber. I never tried to use smalls' situation to support any position. If smalls had been compelled to complete the action he started--putting a few rounds into that other person--that person still would not have been even mildly concerned about what caliber handgun smalls was wielding.

Pointing out that one guy was able to deter an attacker by simply showing part of his gun seems to imply that nothing matters but having a gun to flash.

No, it doesn't. It points to the truth that a person who would be deterred by just seeing his would-be victim's gun will never wait to see what caliber it is.

I did go further to note, in Post #20:

... If he is determined or drugged to the extent that drawing doesn't stop him, then misses with a gun the carrier can't control won't stop him either. And even if the carrier does score non-CNS hits, such an attacker will keep fighting no matter the size or speed of a single bullet. Multiple hits may change that.

I was simply noting--in what most recognized as an attempt to poke fun at caliber debates generally--that the defender's choice of caliber doesn't matter to a human attacker. The defender either : 1) wards off the attack by presenting his gun, 2) misses with a too-powerful round that he can't properly aim, 3) scores a non-stopping hit and faces continuation of the attack, 4) scores multiple hits, generally shortening the duration of the attack, or 5) scores a single stopping hit. What makes that stopping hit effective has far more to do with where it hits than how big the bullet is.

So, I was a little bit wrong, in a way. The attacker would very much like for his armed victim to miss, so he'd appreciate that victim carrying a gun/caliber combination that's too much for him or her to handle properly.

Caliber matters to gun people mostly because we like debating, and it gives us something to debate about. But that was not my intent here.

 

[smalls]

the guy didn't stop to check what caliber you were shooting before he decided to back off and run?

Or how much you paid for your gun?

You know, he just didn't seem that interested in me after that.

(I appreciate the humor, as well guys. I got it )

And if you want to talk weak caliber cheap guns, man do I not want to admit what I was carrying!

btw, Smalls, your sig line really did just make me laugh

That's what it's there for! I'm here all week

 

[lemaymiami]

Stope, gave your response a bit of thought and decided that getting scared half to death regularly might be what keeps us young.... As far as most of the cops I've known, and the many I've outlived.... I'd put general aggravation, broken marriages, angry girlfriends, other family related problems, and just plain bad personal habits far ahead of all the other causes of early death for those of us in that profession.

That sort of stuff may actually be changing. The current generation of police are rarely smokers, generally don't drink nearly as much as previous decades did. In fact it was very, very noticable since I started police work in the early seventies and retired out 22 years later. Most of the newer officers wouldn't even know what "choir practice" was.... Maybe they'll catch up on the divorces and other BS but I'm betting they're generally a lot healthier than the folks I worked with.

 

[Skribs]

Okay, why the smeg didn't I think of bringing a ski mask to work when I worked in grocery? That would have come in handy when I had to go into the freezer.

This is actually one of the reasons I like pocket carry, and am considering just changing my primary to pocket carry (currently primary is IWB and BUG is pocket). If you pocket carry, you can have your hand on your gun, ready to draw in a heartbeat, without looking suspicious. You just have your hands in your pockets.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Skribs: If you pocket carry, you can have your hand on your gun, ready to draw in a heartbeat, without looking suspicious. You just have your hands in your pockets.

That becomes particularly advantageous when it is not practical to avoid walking close to persons who appear shady.

I saw Massad Ayoob demo that on TV a couple of years ago.

In jacket weather, you can add a pocket revolver without taking off your primary carry piece.

 

[scaatylobo]

NO weapon ?

If you did not see a WEAPON,why were you reaching for one.

Possibly it would have been a strong arm robbery with the 'verbal' threat of a weapon.

I will not draw unless I am sure there is a threat of DPF.

You did not state at what point you intended to draw [ if he used a verbal threat ?].

I was LEO,and I do NOT want to be sued or told to "shove that gun" etc.

I will be a great witness and unless there is NO other option,there will be no weapon drawn.OR reached.

And I will never be the reason for gunfire that I started,if he drew and left with everything but the store stock = I dont care.

I also worked on an armored struck for 2 1/2 years and money is just paper.

 

[Autolycus]

Owen Sparks, why didn't you mention that you almost cleared leather and defended your life? You should have mentioned that you were prepared to defend yourself and others with deadly force, it will only reinforce the point.

 

[Owen Sparks]

If you did not see a WEAPON,why were you reaching for one.

Because I am not going to give a masked man in a convenience store the benefit of the doubt. Again, I did not draw, just discreetly established a grip under my jacket to give me an edge if something happened.

Possibly it would have been a strong arm robbery with the 'verbal' threat of a weapon.

Or it could have been some sort of work place massacre like the one that happened in that Spa just a few hours earlier. The kicker is that I did not know why this large man was concealing his identity in an enviroment that is a common target for armed robbery.

I will not draw unless I am sure there is a threat of DPF.

Me neither.

You did not state at what point you intended to draw [ if he used a verbal threat ?].

It never got to that point.

I was LEO,and I do NOT want to be sued or told to "shove that gun" etc.

Me neither but I am not going to get shot over someone else's money.

I will be a great witness and unless there is NO other option,there will be no weapon drawn.OR reached.

Which is a great reason for you to be eliminated.

I also worked on an armored struck for 2 1/2 years and money is just paper.

People get killed over that paper all the time.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Owen Sparks, why didn't you mention that you almost cleared leather and defended your life? You should have mentioned that you were prepared to defend yourself and others with deadly force, it will only reinforce the point.

I never "almost cleared leather" I just prepaired to. He would have had to draw a weapon or make some sort of serious verbal threat that included me before I would actually draw. I was there for a Sprite Zero, not to protect the stores money.

 

[Skribs]

That becomes particularly advantageous when it is not practical to avoid walking close to persons who appear shady.

My hometown is the star of Cops. I treat everyone I don't know as shady.

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's interesting to see hands go towards guns, though they might not be there, when a car backfires. It's kinda instinct and hard not to do.

 

[BLB68]

I was there for a Sprite Zero, not to protect the stores money.

I think this is the important takeaway from this thread.

 

[Texan Scott]

I am not going to give a masked man in a convenience store the benefit of the doubt.

^ THIS. ^ Definitely this. This gem of wisdom will be added to my List of Random Bits of Good Advice.

 

[gtd]

Similar Situation . . .

A similar thing happened to me on the way home from a beach vacation on the Atlantic Coast of Georgia last summer.

We stopped at a convenience store for a rest room break and to buy some cold drinks for the long ride home. Curiously, there was a long mirror above the checkout counter facing into the store.

On the way in, I saw some guys playing pinball at the far end, and they gave me the hairy eyeball. (That's always a clue! ;-) )

As my wife exited the ladies room, she saw (and told me later) one of the seedy-looking pinball players abandon his game and move toward me -- I had my back to him. I also had a new shirt from Bass Pro Shops, with an interesting side pocket under the left-hand shirt flap pocket over the left breast. It was a perfect place to keep a Kel-Tec P-3AT.

I saw the guy in the mirror while I was checking out (and he saw me), and as the cashier rang up the purchase I slipped my right hand into that pocket while looking in the mirror. He turned 180 degrees and went back to his pinball game.

As we drove down the road, my wife said I ought to be more careful, because she saw . . . . And I replied, "I know . . . ."

No harm, no foul, vacation ended well.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

I have placed a hand on my firearm many times because of something to be wary of. How many times I have presented it have been few and far between. I usually have my weapon holstered in a nonchalant way for just that reason, pocket holsters are a good way to get a hand on a weapon without appearing armed.

My most recent time presenting my weapon was late at night taking out trash to our dumpster. A dog ran down the road that I did not recognize and was not acting friendly. I pointed a .22Mag NAA at it until it decided to go away.

 

[il.bill]

And if you want to talk weak caliber cheap guns, man do I not want to admit what I was carrying!

That line made me smile!

 

[JustinJ]

I usually have my weapon holstered in a nonchalant way for just that reason, pocket holsters are a good way to get a hand on a weapon without appearing armed.

I completely agree. While walking the dogs late one night through a slighly wooded area by the house the gf and i notice three young men ahead just hanging out. Given the dogs were with us i wasn't too worried but I was able to place my hand on the gun in my pocket without anybody being the wiser. Had i been carrying on my hip and done so it could have certainly been taken as a threat and landed me in jail.

 

[GEM]

Did you consider a fast exit?

 

[JustinJ]

Did you consider a fast exit?

Only two ways to go on the trail, forward or back. But no, the guys did not exhibit any signs of aggression and as i said i had my dogs. As i initially suspected they were just late teens who were hanging out and smoking. However, there were three of them, it was fairly dark and the area was somewhat secluded so as an extra precaution i put my hand in my pocket until i was satisfied they were not a threat.

 

[Skribs]

Only two ways to go on the trail, forward or back. But no, the guys did not exhibit any signs of aggression and as i said i had my dogs. As i initially suspected they were just late teens who were hanging out and smoking. However, there were three of them, it was fairly dark and the area was somewhat secluded so as an extra precaution i put my hand in my pocket until i was satisfied they were not a threat.

What's the quote? Be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

[JustinJ]

What's the quote? Be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Lol, i've heard that one but that ain't me. I'm afraid that quote is a long way from a heightened sense of alert while on a dark trail at night and approaching three strangers. Being aware of one's surroundings is a rational method of improving security. Planning on how to take everybody one meets out is something else entirely. The day i feel the need to do that is the day i commit myself to a psychiatric hospital.

 

[lemaymiami]

Here's a true story for all you armed encounter folks to consider. And somewhere in the bowels of one training department or other this little bit of film is probably still a star....

Back in the late seventies at Christmas time one of our local video stores (remember them?) had a camera setup on a tripod aiming toward the cash register as part of a display of cameras for sale. After a heart stopping armed robbery (nice long haired robber armed with a real sawed off shotgun at point blank range...) in a very crowded store the clerk finally managed to call us and we got there well after the single robber was long gone. Yep, Christmas in Dade county, a crowded store, and only two people even saw what the clerk (and his camera) saw that afternoon.... We looked at the film as many times as we could... and this is what it showed...

Our robber, dressed casually in a Hawaiian style loose fitting shirt milled around with other customers, then got in line at the register. When it was his turn he stepped up close and pulled a very short double barrelled shotgun from his front where it had been concealed by his shirt... He was so close that only the poor clerk saw the shotgun and began to clean out the register. While all of this was occurring only the next in line behind the robber stepped close enough to see the shotgun.... That customer quickly took one step back and froze in place with his arms crossed (and was probably saying his prayers).... With at least 15 or 20 other customers in the store that never knew what happened, the robber completed his mission and calmly walked away. It was at least a full two minutes before the clerk started jumping up and down (silent film) and pointing at the door... The entire robbery portion of the video took less that three minutes and there was never a shot fired or any raised voices. Only the robber, the victim,and the witness even knew a gun was in play. I might not have believed it myself if I hadn't seen that film....

No, we never caught the guy (and never heard of anything similar - which is how many do finally get caught). The lesson I took from that film is how easily you can miss an armed subject in close proximity. That sort of stuff will keep you up at night.... Glad I didn't think to buy my wife a present that day.

 

[Black Butte]

Carrying a gun is not about "kicking ass," and the decision to draw should be made with the utmost seriousness.

 

[Skribs]

Carrying a gun is not about "kicking ass," and the decision to draw should be made with the utmost seriousness.

This is a very good point. Knowing WHEN to draw is, IMO, the most important skill a CCWer should have.