to draw or not to draw, what would you do?

[yzguy]

I was watching some program on tv that was showing some of the stupid criminal behavior.

2 guys walked into a hotel loby with ski masks on, one with his hands in his pockets, looking like he was pointing a gun in his pocket at the clerk. There are 2 customers in the room, one sitting down on a coutch (who gets up and walks away) and the other is at the counter right next to the "gun man" less than a foot away, but being totaly ignored. What happened is that the customer at the counter puts the "gun man" in a head lock, and pulls him away from the counter. Then the other BG starts hitting the customer, but he holds on to the "gun man". Eventualy the second BG leaves and some other employee comes to help hold down the "gun man". Well it turns out the "gun" was a screw driver in his pocket.

Anyway, my point is that this got me thinking, (I know grabing a BG suspected of having a gun is stupid) what would you do about a BG you strongly suspected of having a gun? I mean say he turned and directly threatened you implying he had a gun in his jaket pocket pointed at you? Also I was thinking about the legal ramifications on shooting someone armed with a screw driver, but then again getting shot by some one with a revolver in their pocket is not pleasant either....

 

[Jack19]

Bad Guy #1 (guy with suspected gun): BANG!!

Bad Guy #2(guy who appears unarmed): "GET DOWN ON THE GROUND, GET DOWN!!!!! DO IT NOW!!!! GET DOWN!!!!! DO IT NOW!!!!"

 

[DigMe]

Don't flame me for this but wow...that was pretty ballsy of the guy to grab the "gunman," REAL stupid but ballsy nonetheless.

brad cook

 

[E357]

I don't understand this course of action at all. What will a headlock do against a man with a gun?

Now since there was another bad guy it justs gets dummer. What if the BG wanted a few bucks - then it escalated into a shooting then it escalated into a "We better leave no witnesses alive" as has happened a few times in Florida fast food places in the past couple of years.

A CCW does not make anyone a LEO. If the BG actually pulled his gun, (or you heard him threatening) then you could take some sort of action but it's not an cut and dried situtation and always scary.

Elliot

 

[Darrin]

Also I was thinking about the legal ramifications on shooting someone armed with a screw driver

If I am in imminent fear of my life, I will shoot to neutralize the situation. If the BG happens to A) be lying about the gun, and/or B) dies from my shots, so be it. That was the BG's choice.

If you tell me you have a gun and will use it, then I am justified in defending myself. If you (the BG) lied to me, then I will personally nominate you for that years Darwin Award.

 

[yzguy]

I don't understand this course of action at all. What will a headlock do against a man with a gun?

The gun was in his front coat pocket (which I think was zipped up) so a head lock from behind (which is what he did) would keep them from being able to point the gun at him. He may have also been holding the guys arm down so that the BG could not draw... Still not saying I would do it, or even that this was his line of thinking, just the way I saw it.

If the BG actually pulled his gun...

He would never have to, if it was a revolver and in his pocket.... no reason to pull it out.

.. A) be lying about the gun...

that is where it gets tricky, there was not any audio on the tape, but what if he never said he had a gun? I mean, I know every situation is different and if I am in fear of my life, I will make that decision then and there (and worry about legalities later) but just something to think about....

in this particular incident, drawing a gun would have most likely made them run as soon as they saw it, but if you waited to see their reaction before firing, it might be that they shoot you first.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Right then, back to basics:

Merely having a gun isn't enough. I have a gun. So does everyone else here. We prefer not to be shot, for excercising our RKBA, thank you very much.

We can also wear ski masks, which is suspicious (unless we're skiing) but not illegal.

Having our hands in our pockets is perfectly legal too, even if there happens to be a gun in said pocket, so long as we keep it hidden, and don't place anyone in jeapordy.

(It seemed to me, from the description that the alleged BG simply had his hand in his pocket, but if the intention was to indicate that he was actively robbing the place, then I stand corrected)

BTW: the following seems to be the "strictest common denominator" for the sake of your future legal well being, and I disclaim the daylights out of it. I'm not a lawyer, etc,etc,etc. Depending on your jurisdiction, you may have more or less leeway than I illustrate here.

The decision to draw is separate from the decision to shoot. In many jurisdictions, "brandishing" will get you into hot water, whether you detected a threat, or probability of a threat or not.

Shooting, on the other hand, can only be done to stop an immediate threat of serious bodily harm (including death) to yourself or another. Generally, there are 3 criteria:


Means, Proximity, and Jeapordy.

In other words, your assaillant must have the means to cause you death or serious bodily harm, must be in range with his means, and must be behaving in such a way that you are placed in immediate jeapordy.

Examples:

Little leaguer with a baseball bat walking home from a game passing you at 2 meters: No go. He has means, he has proximity, but his behaviour isn't placing you in jeapordy.

The same little leaguer charging you at 7 meters, with his bat raised over his head samurai style, cursing oaths...this fits, _maybe_. He has means, proximity, and is placing you in jeapordy, even though the range is longer. ( A charging human can cover 10 meters in about 2 seconds.)

Of course, nothing you can say will make it OK with the public that you shot little Timmy who was having a bad self esteem day, and was out to kill you, but your brains, after all, have an unalienable right to stay in their very own skull, and bats have been known to displace them. The law will also look at this scenario differently, for example, if you are a healthy large male than if you are a sickly, petite female. There is a notion of disparate force that comes into play. The prosecuter will ask questions like, "why did you shoot Timmy, couldn't you have wrestled him? You're a pretty beefy guy, you look like you could take one or two knocks on the head by such a shrimp...." and the outcome might not be so clear cut for you.

Carriage of arms means that you may encounter tough choices of eternal impact that must be made in a flash, often on incomplete information. The best play is don't shoot unless you absolutely have to, and then actly forcefully enough, quickly enough. Fluid situations can spiral out of control very quickly.


From the Boy Scout rifle/shotgun merit badge manual, late 70's:

"Remember, you are accountable for what you do with your firearm, to the law immediately, and to your conscience for all time".

 

[Sharpie1]

We can also wear ski masks, which is suspicious (unless we're skiing) but not illegal.

It certainly is in Virginia.

You can't just go around in public wearing a ski mask.

If I am in a restaurant, and someone walks in wearing a ski mask with their hands in their pockets, they had better have a pretty good reason for doing so, or things will get pretty hairy.

TD

 

[yzguy]

(It seemed to me, from the description that the alleged BG simply had his hand in his pocket, but if the intention was to indicate that he was actively robbing the place, then I stand corrected)

oh, yeah I guess I was not clear, the "gun man" was pointing the screwdriver through his light coat pocket which was lifted up over the hotel counter as he shouted to the clerk behind the counter. Then the Clerk scrambled around a bit (getting money I think) and the customer did not act until this was well under way, probably 5-10 seconds after the screwdriver was lifted over the counter and words were exchanged (which I assume was something along the lines of "give me all the money out of the drawer"). It was not only obvious what was going on, it was already under way.....

my pondering was more along the lines of any situation (maybe an attempted mugging or something) where someone was obviously implying they had a gun in their pocket, was directly threatening you with it, and you had a chance to draw and do something about it (they were temporarily distracted, or if there were multiple people they were robbing, they had not gotten to you yet, but were coming). Where as I would not have a problem drawing, and if they did not start running before I got ready to pull the trigger, shooting. I'm not sure how the courts would look at it...

 

[Chris]

Wow, not a situation anyone wants to be placed in. Is it a pistol, is it his fingers, or is it a screwdriver (as it turns out to be?).

Does anyone remember the Diallo case? Was it a pistol, a wallet, or a pistol in a wallet holster? Only afterwards do you find out.

Many things need to be taken into consideration. Some people will argue that if BG's are wearing masks, then they are doing so to hide their faces from witnesses they leave behind (meaning they aren't planning to massacre the place/kill everyone in sight). But also in today's world they could just be hiding their faces from video surveillance and their plan is to kill everyone in the place. If someone walks in without a mask, they are probably not too worried about people seeing them (any indication they are either stupid, or are going to kill people).

Tackling someone who claims to have a firearm is dumb, plain and simple. Give that guy an award of stupidity. There are several things you can do: 1) Walk away slowly and be a good witness (also being prepared to defend yourself if need be)
2) Draw your own firearm and challenge the BG's (several challenges can be used, but if you want an interesting one, just ask me).
3) Open fire. Engage BG's with lethal force because you personally believe that either your life, or the life of others are in danger.

Is there any right way to handle the situation? Nope. Too many variables. Different people act differently towards the same situation. On a personal level, based on the above description of what happened, I would challenge the BG's, and back it up with lethal force if need be. I can't guarantee that I would be doing the right thing, but that's what I would do.

 

[Feanaro]

Better tried by twelve than carried by six. If someone points their pocket at me and threatens me I am not going to be worried about whether he actually has the gun or not, I will be too busy escaping or taking him down.

 

[Jack19]

2) Draw your own firearm and challenge the BG's

DO NOT challenge BGs as a civilian, when your weapon appears use it!

Challenges are for cops whos job is to arrest, your job is to defend your life in what you perceive to be a life threatening senario; especially when you're drawing on someone you reasonably believe has a gun.

Don't give them the time to turn and fire first.

 

[Chris]

Sorry Jack, but I strongly have to disagree. You always have to look at the legal aspect of things before you act. If you go to court and tell the court "all I did was draw and fire" you will probably get in more trouble than if you tell the court "I gave a verbal warning before I used the necessary force to protect my life/the life of others".

Unless you have absolutely no chance to give a warning, you should give it. It is not the job of LEO's to give challenges, it is the responsibility of all responsible citizens as well.

As to your other point if you draw your firearm level with a BG and he has enough time to turn to you and fire, than you need to train more.

Not starting a flame war, just giving my perspective as a trainer.

 

[Sharpie1]

I believe that if a person is pointing something at me from the inside of their pocket, and claiming it is a gun - while demanding I give them money - I will assume they do have a gun, and react accordingly -- that is, by shooting them immediately.

I don't understand how anyone doesn't consider this to be a lethal threat. I'm not going to wait to get shot or stabbed to be convinced that the person making the threat (A) has the guts to carry out the threat or (B) actually has a lethal weapon with them.

I believe that most will agree that if someone points something at you, and claims it is a gun (if it is covered), or if someone has a gun out in the open pointed at you, that it is clearly justifiable to respond by immediately engaging the target.

TD

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Legal rammifications of shooting a guy with a screwdriver? Well, if he had it concealed in a pocket and used it like it was a gun to threaten you, then you were in fear from your life. Whether it was a gun, screwdriver, or finger is not material.

If you end up killing a guy with a screwdriver in his pocket that he was using as a gun prop, then too bad for the guy for not using a real gun.

 

[Ryder]

Close to a situation I experienced once. Me and a bud had ordered at a restraunt and he got up to put a quarter in the juke box. Some middleaged guy (we were young) in a suit sat in his seat at our booth and when my bud came back threatened to shoot my bud if he didn't find another seat while holding his hand in his coat.

My bud was shouting, you got a gun? Go ahead shoot me. Hahha... The guy kept calling nhim a punk. I wasn't feeling very comfortable sitting across the table from the guy. So I got up walked around behind my bud, behind the BG and snapped a buck knife out in his ear. He slowly put his hands on the table and it was verified he was unarmed. You should have seen the hair on the back of that guy's neck stand up, just like a cat!

We sat back down to wait for our meal but it never did come. The BG got served! Ha. After trying to get the waitresses attention and her ignoring us I figured 20 minutes was too long to wait and that what we were waiting for was the police.

Screw that. We left... That pockfaced piece of slime almost got decappitated! I was looking over his shoulder and had a good view into his suit where his hand was, if I'd have seen gun he would have been carried out of there.

Edit to clarify: I would not have shot this guy if I had a gun until I saw an gun. It seemed comical to threaten death over a seat in front of dozens of witnesses. I was not being threatened and my buddy was not acting in fear. I would have used a gun as I did the knife. Now if I am threatened directly over something other than a seat in a crowded restraunt? Different story. I've been threatened with death several times and in true fear for my life each time. I've been able to escape in the past because I was young and fast. I do know for an absolute fact that I don't need to see a weapon to consder protecting myself from a real threat on my life. Only three times did I have a weapon shoved in my face (38, butcherknife, and a tire iron), the other times it was force of numbers and/or unseen weapons. I will always regret not defending myself with lethal force because it is probable that these evil creatures went on to murder someone else having learned from their mistakes with me. Who wouldn't want to prevent that?

 

[Mil Novecientos Once]

to draw or not to draw, what would you do?

Circa 1992 I remember a junkie that pretended to have a gun inside a paper gab. He told me to give him my shoes, wallet, and skateboard. I beat the crap out of him with my skateboard Now that my CCW is no longer a skateboard I think I'll do the same.

If you end up killing a guy with a screwdriver in his pocket that he was using as a gun prop, then too bad for the guy for not using a real gun.

Amen.

 

[Chris]

I apologize if I was not clear in my reply.

I was under the impression that a BG was not threatening my life, but the life of another person. This is when I would give a verbal warning, assuming I had the time, distance, and cover to do so.

If he was pointing it at me and telling me it was a gun, it would be an entire different ballgame, I would react the way I have in the past, treating it as a threat to my life and reacting accordingly with my firearm.

Please do not take my comments as chastising anyone, for everyone feels and reacts differently to situations where lethal force may be used. I personally feel that if at all possible, give a verbal warning. If I was to go ahead and shoot in every situation were I believed I may be injured/killed, without a verbal warning, than I'd have been in a hell of a lot of gunfights by now

 

[Jack19]

Chris, do you mind if I ask what kind of training you do and for whom you do it?

 

[Cal4D4]

When he started threatening, you are in a situation where you want to prove action - you drawing and firing- beats his reaction with whatever is in his pocket. No room for much brandishing or conversation. His cohort better figure out how to convince you he is a non combatant before you finish neutralizing threat #1. If you aren't convinced of the immediacy of the threat for some reason (?) clear leather and hold as close to low ready behind the counter (and out of sight) as you can.

Be prepared to explain your actions and lose your job. Right or wrong, someone is gonna be the fall guy. Liabilities, ya know.

 

[Chris]

The training that I do is generally in defensive pistol use, although occasionally if another instructor is not available, I will teach defensive shotgun courses as well. The techniques that I teach to people are open to discussion for when I take training (you can never have enough) nothing upsets me more than an instructor who will not answer a question/query you have. Instructors who believe that their way is the only way of doing things are sadly mistaken (if I have come off this way, I apologize for I am always trying to learn better ways of doing things). The techniques I teach are what I believe work best in violent encounters based on a mix of all the training I have taken myself. I teach vertical line tracks/zippering while other instructors may teach mozambique. I teach unsighted/point shooting while other instructors teach sighted techniques.

I hope to be a helpful contributor to this site and apologize if I come off rude or arrogant (after reading some of my previous posts, I think I may have copped some attitude).