Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program

[Heretic]

I'm sure some of those "scumbag mexican drug lords" are realy nice guys. I'm sure they love their families, and are just doing these bad things to keep their jobs. We shouldn't fault them for just following orders, should we? (sarcasm intended)

I'm 100% with Deanimator on this one!

 

[<MoA]

An untapped local market, apparently!

Wow! Right about now, as our tenuous socio-economic "sitch" degrades before our very eyes, I'd love to be able to just go out and purchase, on the American side of our strong southern border, a few Stingers, an RPG or five, a full-auto Thompson and and M-40! Perhaps a slightly used M1 Abrams? Even if only to rent it for a weekend bank robbery or the like?

Apparently it's easy, and with my FFL, it should be a breeze, don'tcha think? I shouldn't even have to fill in any danged ATF forms, apparently. Just politely ask for the firearms, and I'm in!

(What a media-run circus! And to think that the typical 6:00 pm News Hour American media-watchers buy this all, hook, line and sinker! Question: whatever happened to critical thinking? We're doomed, for sure!)

 

[HD Fboy]

I watched about 60% of the committee hearing today. After watching it is apparent to any and everyone that this was a pure political move to justify taking away gun rights from average citizens. I wonder who will fall on the sword? It won't be Obama, Clinton, Holder, Napalitono, etc. who obviously cooked this little operation up.

I talked to a guy today and he was talking about the millions of guns moving into Mexico from the US every day. I called BS. My question, why would you go to the trouble/expense of smuggling guns into Mexico from the US when you could have a whole Conex container from China, Pakistan, etc. for the cost of 50 rifles from the US. Also these would be Machine Guns not Semi Autos from the US. He looked at me for a moment, and said "gee your right, I didn't think about that."

I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, Whit until it comes to light that the smugglers were encouraged to buy the guns in the US by CIA assets. Or, that the US government paid for the weapons.

 

[clutch]

It may be lost on many that the government is now the home of true believers. Those that value perceived environmental improvements at the cost of jobs and disposable income.

Those that would rather have a wolf live in your space than you and they work though various government agencies.

Batfe, oh that is the home of those that hate guns, I'm sure there are good people in that organization but they are not running it and never will. The ones that want to take away freedom seem to be way more dedicated to their goals than we are.

Most of us do not want a big government or want to work for it. That is our Achilles heel.

Clutch

 

[DammitBoy]

In fact, I would NOT have made the sales and would have eagerly told the BATFE to pound sand.

What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?

 

[Sam1911]

What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?

Absolutely nothing. Happens all the time. A dealer can legally refuse a sale if he/she feels anything is amiss.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

My question is "who's getting fired and who's going to jail"? The ATF was clearly involved in felonious activity here, head's need to roll, lets start with Eric Holder.

 

[ATBackPackin]

Does anyone have a link to the hearing from today? I found one on YouTube, but it was only 30 minutes long and I thought this was supposed to be a two hour hearing.

Anyone? Anyone? ( in my best Ben Stein voice)

 

[Deanimator]

What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?

To the best of my knowledge, the BATFE doesn't "approve" background checks.

What the BATFE did was to KNOWINGLY tell dealers to IGNORE disqualifications and suspicious behavior by purchasers.

If your local grocery store KNOWS that produce has e-coli, they're under NO obligation to sell that produce, regardless of what local, state or federal food inspectors say.

If an FFL knows that a transfer is improper, they have ZERO duty to go through with it.

Regarding the sales by the FFLs where they TOLD the BATFE ahead of time that they were going to be improper, the FFLs have virtually no legal exposure. Any prosecution, and indeed any impairment of their licenses would certainly be found to be the product of blatant entrapment. It would almost certainly be actionable in civil court by the FFLs.

The BATFE and any of its employees who did NOT object are completely and absolutely culpable for the long series of crimes committed in this debacle, up to and including the death of the Border Patrol agent.

The defenders of the BATFE in this matter are of a kind with the defenders of the perpetrators of the Malmedy Massacre.

 

[Heretic]

"What the BATFE did was to KNOWINGLY tell dealers to IGNORE disqualifications and suspicious behavior by purchasers."

The BATFE assured these FFL's that they had the situation under control, and wanted the transfers to go through to assist in a sting operation. The FFL's believed they were helping law enforcement catch the crooks.

 

[Deanimator]

The FFL's believed they were helping law enforcement catch the crooks.

When in fact, what they were doing was [inadvertently] helping the BATFE arm narco-terrorists in Mexico.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?

 

[Bubbles]

I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?

1) You would have to find someone with standing to sue (not likely), and 2) the plaintiff would still have to get past the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

 

[DammitBoy]

I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?

My understanding is that several FFL's are already in dnager of losing their businesses because the BATFE is threatening action.

 

[Deanimator]

My understanding is that several FFL's are already in dnager of losing their businesses because the BATFE is threatening action.

If any of them raised documented objections to the BATFE and were subsequently told to allow improper transfers, I predict that they will both ultimately keep their FFLs AND get a massive infusion of cash, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

 

[HorseSoldier]

1) You would have to find someone with standing to sue (not likely),

The family of the border patrol agent killed with one of the Fast & Furious guns would seem at least one such group.

and 2) the plaintiff would still have to get past the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

Does the act include protecting FFLs from civil liability when they knowingly participate in illegal sales? Did the ATF provide any get out of jail free documentation in writing to the FFLs involved, or did they proceed with NCIC denied or known strawman purchases based on verbal go aheads from the ATF (that seems a bad idea . . .).

 

[Deanimator]

Any FFL who did anything on the word of anybody from the BATFE alone is a fool and deserves to lose his license. I wouldnt do anything without SIGNED instructions.

 

[DammitBoy]

The ATF blames the FFL's that cooperated;

HOUSTON - When it comes to selling weaponry to the drug thugs of Mexico, Houston gun dealer Carter's Country has been labeled a profit hungry merchant willing to turn a blind eye to bad guys south of the border.

A Washington Post investigative story linked 115 firearms confiscated over the past two years by Mexican authorities waging the drug war to Carter's Country outlets. That makes the largest independent gun dealer in the region among the biggest sources of fire power for the murderous cartels.

It certainly looks bad, until you hear a different side of the story.

"Let me tell you something about Carter's Country. They have been co-operating with ATF from the get go," says attorney Dick Deguerin who represents Carter's Country owner, Bill Carter.

Deguerin says the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms asked Carter's Country to complete transactions, even when sales people strongly suspected the weapons were headed to Mexican drug gangs.

"They were told to go through with what they considered to be questionable sales. They were told to go through with sales of three or more assault rifles at the same time or five or more 9 millimeter guns at the same time or a young Hispanic male paying in cash. It's all profiling, but they went through with it," said Deguerin.

"They reported them promptly, either while the transaction was going on or soon there after. They did this for months and months and months. Went through with the sales because the ATF told them to go through with the sales," he added.

Deguerin say at the ATF's request, Carter's Country employees followed some customers into parking lots and recorded license plate numbers.

"If the ATF had used the information that Carter's Country developed for them they could have stopped these guns from going across the border," insists Deguerin.

A spokesperson for ATF would neither confirm nor deny the co-operation agreement with Carter's Country, but did say "I don't think we would issue a blanket directive.”

That's left Deguerin's client feeling unjustly vilified and betrayed.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

.

Status Update:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...isting-pressure-to-step-down/?test=latestnews

ATF Director Melson Reportedly Resisting Pressure to Step Down

Published June 25, 2011

| FoxNews.com

The acting director of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is standing his ground and resisting pressure to step down amid a gun trafficking scandal, sources close to the situation tell the Los Angeles Times.

.

 

[Deanimator]

Status Update:

There's no honor among thieves or killers.

I fervently hope that the entire loathsome gang of cretins gets into an all against all razor fight on the edge of a legal volcano, and that the survivor(s) then fall in, Holder first and foremost. With any luck, he'll drag Obama into the abyss with him.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Resign? He should be prosecuted!

 

[Heretic]

Why do you suppose the DOJ doesn't want him talking to congress?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Because he knows all the ins and outs on who knew what and when, and they just tried to throw him under the bus.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Why do you suppose the DOJ doesn't want him talking to congress?

Did Al Capone want his accountant talking to the IRS?

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

.

Status update:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/27/atf-to-fire-gunrunner-whistleblower/

'Project Gunrunner' Whistleblower Says ATF Sent Him Termination Notice

By Maxim Lott

Published June 27, 2011

| FoxNews.com


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is being accused of retaliating against an agent who helped publicize the agency’s role in allowing thousands of guns to cross the U.S. border and fall into the hands of Mexican drug gangs.

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