Vern Humphrey
Member
There's another name for that -- witness tampering. ATFE high level management and the Attorney General should stand trial for that, if for nothing else.
Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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Fox news reported;
The agent, Vince Cefalu, who has spoken out about the ATF's so-called "Project Gunrunner" scandal, says he was served with termination papers just last week, and he calls the move politically motivated.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/27/atf-to-fire-gunrunner-whistleblower/#ixzz1QWVgftmI
OOOPS! posted already!
The agent, Vince Cefalu, who has spoken out about the ATF's so-called "Project Gunrunner" scandal, says he was served with termination papers just last week, and he calls the move politically motivated.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/27/atf-to-fire-gunrunner-whistleblower/#ixzz1QWVgftmI
OOOPS! posted already!
Last edited:
Ignition Override
Member
Deanimator:
Your solution would help slow the US' downward spiral.
Compared to the ruthless craving for power and use of random, arbitrary methods used by Holder and some ATF mgmt. to showcase their status as being above the law and unaccountable, leaders of the "Peoples' Republic of China" appear to be more moderate.
How do we create another Magna Carta as was done by English barons against King John in 1215 at Runnymede, but this time will impose tighter limitations on the abuse of power by federal appointees?
Your solution would help slow the US' downward spiral.
Compared to the ruthless craving for power and use of random, arbitrary methods used by Holder and some ATF mgmt. to showcase their status as being above the law and unaccountable, leaders of the "Peoples' Republic of China" appear to be more moderate.
How do we create another Magna Carta as was done by English barons against King John in 1215 at Runnymede, but this time will impose tighter limitations on the abuse of power by federal appointees?
Neverwinter
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It's been spiraling downward since Reagan invoked the strong unitary executive concept that validates expansive executive power. It continued when George W Bush did the same. That failed perspective should not be continued.
lemaymiami
Member
Can't agree with the last comment at all - but he's welcome to his opinion....
On another note I caught an interview today on Fox with both the ATF "whistleblower" Agent Cefalu, and another short piece with Rep Issa.... The information they provided should be on the daily 24 cycle on Fox as well as in writing on Fox's website news article.
What really caught my ear wasn't Cefalu's assertion since I have no way of judging whether it's credible. What Issa said really got me... he said clearly that all of the ATF agents they've interviewed gave full info and said they'd disagreed with the project. Everyone at the next level up, particularly in DOJ, were not forthcoming at all.... I'm understating here if anyone doubts me.
As a retired cop who was at the management level for the final seven years of a 22 year career.... I'd expect to be facing a grand jury in this situation..... Of course that's not how the feds have ever done things (I was on the job from the very end of 1973 to October 1995 so that's the period I'm familiar with). I'm really looking forward to the testimony of the acting head of ATF on this.... wouldn't it be amazing if he actually spoke up.
On another note I caught an interview today on Fox with both the ATF "whistleblower" Agent Cefalu, and another short piece with Rep Issa.... The information they provided should be on the daily 24 cycle on Fox as well as in writing on Fox's website news article.
What really caught my ear wasn't Cefalu's assertion since I have no way of judging whether it's credible. What Issa said really got me... he said clearly that all of the ATF agents they've interviewed gave full info and said they'd disagreed with the project. Everyone at the next level up, particularly in DOJ, were not forthcoming at all.... I'm understating here if anyone doubts me.
As a retired cop who was at the management level for the final seven years of a 22 year career.... I'd expect to be facing a grand jury in this situation..... Of course that's not how the feds have ever done things (I was on the job from the very end of 1973 to October 1995 so that's the period I'm familiar with). I'm really looking forward to the testimony of the acting head of ATF on this.... wouldn't it be amazing if he actually spoke up.
Deanimator
Member
Obama and Holder appear to be dragging him bodily toward the path of the bus, and he appears to be leaving heel marks in the sidewalk.
If he doesn't have some kind of "accident", there's EVERY likelihood that he'll rat out the culprits at the top. I'm CERTAIN it reaches AT LEAST to Holder... probably higher.
lemaymiami
Member
As tempting as it is to believe that.... I don't think they're that skilled. It's just one of those screw-ups that just got completely out of hand. Now it's coverup time. The only thing I haven't heard about this particular screw-up (I'm being polite here) is when it began. If it began under the current administration then there's a chance that anything planned had a second agenda since they're definitely a bunch of 'true believers' and might have intended a greater move toward gun control as the end result. If it started before Obama then all we're looking at is the coverup. Which in recent years might just get the folks responsible in bad trouble (a little wishful on my part, I know).
Most cops know that this sort of stuff can wind all concerned in front a grand jury and lead to very bad outcomes.... Note, I said cops, and I don't include feds in that category at all. I've met and worked with many feds at street level that were outstanding - but the administrators and those who work for them.... don't play by rules that I want any part of....
Most cops know that this sort of stuff can wind all concerned in front a grand jury and lead to very bad outcomes.... Note, I said cops, and I don't include feds in that category at all. I've met and worked with many feds at street level that were outstanding - but the administrators and those who work for them.... don't play by rules that I want any part of....
HorseSoldier
Member
The people in charge aren't that sophisticated or capable of coherent action. If the operation was intended to discredit the 2nd Amendment don't think for a minute that whistle blowers wouldn't have that info out there for the press and political opposition along with the current revelations.
Unistat
Member
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.
azmjs
member
I think you're overlooking the real problem here- high melodrama.
Poorly conceived sting operations go bad from time to time. Such is life.
DammitBoy
Member
What about the claim that this sting operation was begun under Bush? Sounds like this is part two of making sure Obama doesn't get blamed for this.
lemaymiami
Member
As I've already said, I'd very much like to know when this whole fiasco got started. If it started under one administration, then carried over to the next.... that's a real recipe for trouble since the folks at the upper end of DOJ are very likely to be political appointees and most certainly not up to speed on things at first (later on is another story). That's not to excuse them (and I'm certainly not a supporter in any sense of the word of our current administration...).
Lots to learn about this, and it will not be entertaining since very bad things happened. I have zero sympathy for anyone found to be covering up this mess. If that's what occurred it won't have been the guys/gals on the line - that sort of stuff will come from above.
Lots to learn about this, and it will not be entertaining since very bad things happened. I have zero sympathy for anyone found to be covering up this mess. If that's what occurred it won't have been the guys/gals on the line - that sort of stuff will come from above.
armoredman
Member
If I remember the hearings, the Operation GUNRUNNER was started under Bush, but Fast and Felony Stupid was started in 2009...AFTER Dear Leader was in power. Just what I remember hearing, could be wrong.
Every agent questioned in the hearings seemed to say the same thing - the stated "aim" of the operation was insane on the face of it, impossible to accomplish, and doomed to failure before it began, especially with deliberate non-co-operation with Meixcan authorities. With that being read, there had to be some reason given for this type of operation, a reason that would cause someone who passed a background check and mental health examination to become federal law enforcement agency's management to sign off on it.
Every agent questioned in the hearings seemed to say the same thing - the stated "aim" of the operation was insane on the face of it, impossible to accomplish, and doomed to failure before it began, especially with deliberate non-co-operation with Meixcan authorities. With that being read, there had to be some reason given for this type of operation, a reason that would cause someone who passed a background check and mental health examination to become federal law enforcement agency's management to sign off on it.
lemaymiami
Member
"background check and mental health exam...." You have entirely too much faith in the folks who are running things. The background check amounts to "Have they been caught doing anything"? and the mental health component is simply is he/she smart enough to be on our side? The most important item is often simply "who is owed what" when it's political appointees you're speaking of. Wish I was wrong here or that both sides of the political equation don't operate the same in that particular area....
Often the only hope a federal bureaucracy (or state or local) has is the folks who are straight career types that will see all manner of appointees come and go. They're the ones that actually get things done. If they're reasonably honest and actually try to get a job done we're all very lucky. Systems like this aren't set up to do great things, and many with ambition and drive just get ground down to the point that they're just putting in time until retirement.
Of course I'm just a cranky guy that's pretty cynical about how things actually work....
Often the only hope a federal bureaucracy (or state or local) has is the folks who are straight career types that will see all manner of appointees come and go. They're the ones that actually get things done. If they're reasonably honest and actually try to get a job done we're all very lucky. Systems like this aren't set up to do great things, and many with ambition and drive just get ground down to the point that they're just putting in time until retirement.
Of course I'm just a cranky guy that's pretty cynical about how things actually work....
HorseSoldier
Member
Right, and if there was any evidence the whole operation was intended to discredit the 2nd Amendment, they'd have that information out there for Congressional and media perusal along with the rest of it.
Not saying your wrong, but what makes you so sure? How is that information going to get out 'there'? Do you think the media has gun-rights at the heart of it's agenda...sure, only it's it to limit them. :-(
HorseSoldier
Member
Do you think Fox News would let any documented suggestion of a false flag operation intended to undermine the 2nd Amendment slide right on by?
Yes...Have you heard of Waco and the OKC Bombings?
Fox news is really good at one thing: Pretending to hate liberals. But, the reality is, they are in the same camp as the other news networks.
Of course, Fox does have some occasional good discussions, I can't say they hold themselves to any kind of real moral standard. When they start calling Lincoln a treasonous bastard instead of 'the greatest president', advocating using gold as money, talking about World Trade Center Tower 7, calling Bush a war criminal and calling for his prosecution (along with several other presidents), then maybe I'll think they are not on the take.
Fox news is really good at one thing: Pretending to hate liberals. But, the reality is, they are in the same camp as the other news networks.
Of course, Fox does have some occasional good discussions, I can't say they hold themselves to any kind of real moral standard. When they start calling Lincoln a treasonous bastard instead of 'the greatest president', advocating using gold as money, talking about World Trade Center Tower 7, calling Bush a war criminal and calling for his prosecution (along with several other presidents), then maybe I'll think they are not on the take.
Unistat
Member
See my sig please.
Tim the student
Member
Not sure which of the threads to post this in....
I got an update from my senator today, Chuck Grassley. Nothing really earth shaking in it, but he considered it important enough to put in his newsletter. He still has it out for the ATF it looks like, and he isn't going to let go.
He says in part:
"When the ATF promotes this kind of misleading data, it distracts from the real questions of our investigation: Why was the ATF was involved in a policy to allow guns to fall into the hands of straw purchasers who were then transporting them to Mexican drug cartels and who approved this reckless strategy? Congressman Issa and I are committed to getting to the bottom of this irresponsible decision, regardless of agency attempts to manipulate the truth."
For your reading pleasure
I got an update from my senator today, Chuck Grassley. Nothing really earth shaking in it, but he considered it important enough to put in his newsletter. He still has it out for the ATF it looks like, and he isn't going to let go.
He says in part:
"When the ATF promotes this kind of misleading data, it distracts from the real questions of our investigation: Why was the ATF was involved in a policy to allow guns to fall into the hands of straw purchasers who were then transporting them to Mexican drug cartels and who approved this reckless strategy? Congressman Issa and I are committed to getting to the bottom of this irresponsible decision, regardless of agency attempts to manipulate the truth."
For your reading pleasure
Baba Louie
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Why am I reminded of Vince Foster when I read your post? Hmmmmm. Like TWA Flight 800 I don't expect the total truth from anyone in the driver's seat, but a whitewashed version acceptable to the MSM then off we go too another problem elsewhere, conveniently placing all this behind us... or them... (whoever "them" is, and we'll never find that smoking gun pointing at someone so highly placed). Maybe my tinfoil chapeau is too tight (or loose), dunno.
I look forward to Grassley and Issa trying to find an honest answer, but fear the fix is in.
Cryogaijin
Member
I think the partisan politics are a bit out of place in this discussion. I doubt either Obama or W had much to do with this at all, except possibly a go-ahead or similar.
There is too much of a tendency to blame the administration or the party etc etc for things that it is fairly unlikely that the prez or party had anything to do with. (Example, blaming obama for the stupidity of the mil shredding their brass during obama's first 100 days. I don't think Obama knows enough about firearms to figure that one out, nor do I think anyone was pulling his strings. Someone else was behind it.)
This is a country of over 300 million people. Holding the supreme executive responsible for Minutia is silly. It is the big trends that they influence, that and their personal "project" (War on Drugs etc.)
What I would LOVE to see is greater accountability in the government so that the actual person/s behind debacles like this can be brought into the light and treated in the manner they deserve. (Extradite them to Mexico for trial.)
There is too much of a tendency to blame the administration or the party etc etc for things that it is fairly unlikely that the prez or party had anything to do with. (Example, blaming obama for the stupidity of the mil shredding their brass during obama's first 100 days. I don't think Obama knows enough about firearms to figure that one out, nor do I think anyone was pulling his strings. Someone else was behind it.)
This is a country of over 300 million people. Holding the supreme executive responsible for Minutia is silly. It is the big trends that they influence, that and their personal "project" (War on Drugs etc.)
What I would LOVE to see is greater accountability in the government so that the actual person/s behind debacles like this can be brought into the light and treated in the manner they deserve. (Extradite them to Mexico for trial.)
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