K-12 carry question

[bobmcd]

I have been trying to find out the state of concealed carry in K-12 schools. I have seen multiple articles that assert that X number of states allow K-12 carry, but they never actually list the states, the dates that the law went into effect, or any other particulars.

Does anyone know of an actual list of states that allow school carry?

 

[vamo]

States that allow tend to do so with the caveat "with permission from school administration/school board." So good luck with that, even where its "allowed" its still pretty much prohibited.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Michigan allows open carry by parents.

State school boards, even more so than colleges, are psychotically liberal from the administration on down. You also have to contend with PTA/PTO where soccer moms rule their little fiefdoms.

I would say that there are a number of states that allow carry by parents but the number that allow carry by teachers is VERY small and the ones that do usually leave it up to some level of local administration (be it district HR or school principal) and with the exception of one or two Texas school districts that I've heard of on the news, I'd say you could probably count on your fingers the number of K-12 teachers that lawfully carry.

To answer your original question: NO, there is no list. You can push for publication. The power granted to school boards in this country is astonishing.

 

[bobmcd]

To clarify my initial question: I personally am not interested in carrying into a K-12 school, as my son is long gone from that situation. However, I have a friend who is a retired educator and totally aghast at the idea of "giving guns to teachers." I reply that I am not in favor of "giving" guns to anyone, nor of requiring teachers to be armed, but rather just in the idea of allowing a faculty member to remained armed while on campus.

I have seen assertions that 11 states allow K-12 carry, but other than Utah, the news items never actually list the states.

What I am really looking for is to be able to say, "Look, the following states already allow armed teachers, and their schools are not blood-spattered abattoirs."

I am currently looking up one state at a time, but was hoping that someone out there knew of a summary of the data to short-circuit the process. If I get done making a list before someone else posts one, I will come back here with the outcome of my research.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Michigan allows open carry by parents.

Really? Then please cite the law.

I don't know myself. I would never opine that something was legal unless/until I had personally done the necessary research. Nor would I opine that something was legal unless I was prepared to set out the bases for my opinion. That's how we do things downtown.

If someone claims something is legal, and it's not, anyone who acted on the basis of that incorrect information could get into a lot of trouble.

Also, some State which might allow doing something do so only subject to certain conditions, limitations or restrictions. A statement that something is legal without specifying any conditions, limitations or restrictions is in complete and incorrect.

So anyone who posts, "It's legal in State X" owes it to the rest of us to tell us exactly why he believes it. And anyone who pays attention to any such opinion does so at his own risk.

 

[Red Wind]

This article shows that things appear to be possibly moving in the direction of K-12 carry in several states, with limitations.

In Colorado, North Dakota and Wyoming, lawmakers are pushing legislation that would peel back limits on bringing firearms to K-12 schools as well.

“We would like schools to have more options for protection,” says North Dakota Rep. Dwight Kiefert, a Republican sponsor of legislation that would allow holders of concealed weapons licenses to bring firearms to school campuses if they receive the school’s permission.

Utah is the only current state that I know of that allows K-12 carry with a permit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Utah

n Utah a person may carry firearms in some places not allowed by some other states, including banks, bars, public universities, and state parks. With a permit, you may also carry in schools (K-12). Utah's Uniform Firearm Laws expressly prohibits public schools from enacting or enforcing any rule pertaining to firearms.[10] Utah requires public schools to allow lawful firearms possession.[11]

 

[Red Wind]

I just found this site.

It's quite explicit on the school carry rules in all 50 states. If I am reading the chart correctly, 12 states allow K-12 carry. But in all but Utah ,the individual schools may prohibit.

Scroll down for the 50 state chart.

 

[Om]

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

 

[The Alaskan]

State school boards, even more so than colleges, are psychotically liberal from the administration on down.

You know, I hear statements like this a lot. (A LOT.) And it's not that I disagree with it, or think it false, or even exaggerated (although I wouldn't use the adjective "psychotic"), but I have to wonder and ask "Why is that?"

Why is it that conservatives have completely abandoned education as a career field? I'm not talking politics and NCLB etc etc. I'm asking why is it that people with a conservative mind set almost never...ever...go into teaching and/or school administration as a career field?

I apologize for hijacking the thread, but it gets tiring hearing people blame public education as being "too liberal" when no one wants to do anything about it.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Really? Then please cite the law.

There was an item in the news about it recently. A father wanted to carry a gun while picking up their kid. The law said something to the effect of, "you can't CCW in the school," but it was silent on open carry. Since there was no law against open carry, it was assumed that it was legal.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Really? Then please cite the law.

There was an item in the news about it recently. A father wanted to carry a gun while picking up their kid. The law said something to the effect of, "you can't CCW in the school," but it was silent on open carry. Since there was no law against open carry, it was assumed that it was legal.

In other words all you had was a worthless basis for your conclusion.

 

[Prince Yamato]

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2015/07/gun_bill_would_trade_open_carr.html

Here's one link.

 

[X-Rap]

provided they first request an exemption from the state.

Those sure sound like legal weasel words to me.
I hope they fight that bill tooth and nail.
That article probably won't satisfy your antagonist but it sure looks like the state of Michigan accepts it.

 

[bobmcd]

Red Wind: Thanks, that (http://smartgunlaws.org/guns-in-schools-policy-summary/) is exactly the sort of source I was looking for. I have seen news items (mainly anti-gun) asserting that eleven states allow guns in K-12, but they drop that line of thought instantly, with no list of states (other than Utah). They then go on to say words to the effect of "and ain't that just NUTS?" and then launch into the usual "common sense" idiocy.

 

[redneck]

You know, I hear statements like this a lot. (A LOT.) And it's not that I disagree with it, or think it false, or even exaggerated (although I wouldn't use the adjective "psychotic"), but I have to wonder and ask "Why is that?"

Why is it that conservatives have completely abandoned education as a career field? I'm not talking politics and NCLB etc etc. I'm asking why is it that people with a conservative mind set almost never...ever...go into teaching and/or school administration as a career field?

I apologize for hijacking the thread, but it gets tiring hearing people blame public education as being "too liberal" when no one wants to do anything about it.

Well I can't comment on how the trend started but I can tell you from watching several family members get a degree in education and go on to find jobs, the course material is liberally biased, and the jobs are all union. I really believe some of the stuff they come up with borderlines on brainwashing, after you subject someone to it for 4+ years. I think it just works out that a very small percentage of conservatives can maintain interest, or play the game well enough to get a job when its over.

As for the original topic I'm not even sure where the issue stands in Ohio. I know there was talk about letting teachers carry but if it was passed it was only to be allowed with permission from administrators. With the prevailing attitude around here, if I was a school employee I would have been afraid to ask the admins for permission because it would have been outing myself to them as a gun owner. That isn't a good attitude for promoting RKBA but it is a real concern for a lot of people.

 

[Red Wind]

Red Wind: Thanks, that (http://smartgunlaws.org/guns-in-schools-policy-summary/) is exactly the sort of source I was looking for. I have seen news items (mainly anti-gun) asserting that eleven states allow guns in K-12, but they drop that line of thought instantly, with no list of states (other than Utah). They then go on to say words to the effect of "and ain't that just NUTS?" and then launch into the usual "common sense" idioc

You're welcome, Bob. I was quite surprised to find that site and never realized that so many states allowed K-12 carry, restrictions notwithstanding.

 

[Quiet]

Under current CA laws, valid CA LTC permit holders are exempt from CA GFSZ laws and can legally carry on school/college grounds. [PC 626.9(l)]
This exemption was included when CA passed it's GFSZ laws in 1995.

Due to the increase of issuance of CA LTC permits, the anti-gun movement was able to push through legislation (SB707) that would remove the GFSZ exemption for CA LTC permit holders.

Please contact CA Governor Jerry Brown and urge him to veto SB707.




Penal Code 626.9
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150) of Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

 

[SKILCZ]

Michigan allows open carry in pistol free zones provided you have a concealed pistol license. If you don't have a CPL, you cannot legally open carry in a PFZ.

This sums it up.

 

[ring-eldest]

I just found this site.

It's quite explicit on the school carry rules in all 50 states. If I am reading the chart correctly, 12 states allow K-12 carry. But in all but Utah ,the individual schools may prohibit.

Scroll down for the 50 state chart.

I would be careful with that list, as it may not be entirely accurate. For example, Mississippi seems to allow CCW with an enhanced permit in all K-12 schools according to this clarification by the state AG.

I met a teacher at a middle school in the northern part of the state that carries, but I have no idea how common it is. My experience in the field (school psychology, working with teachers and in the schools) definitely gave me the impression that the biases The Alaskan mentions are in full force. Very anti-gun, with a small quiet minority of gun enthusiasts few and far between.

 

[Gary Slider]

In Michigan a person can carry openly into a K-12 School. Open Carry is legal with restrictions. You must have a valid permit/license to carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle in Michigan. For Residents of Michigan without a CPL you must carry a firearm registered to you. For Non Residents if you do not have a permit/license from your state of residents Concealed and/or Open Carry is not an option for you. Michigan honors all other states permits but you have to be a resident of the state you have a permit in to be valid in Michigan. Words have meaning and Michigan Law only states you can't carry a concealed firearm into a school. So Open Carry is legal as has been ruled. So you will not find a law that states open carry is legal in K-12 schools. If there is no law against something then it is legal.

There are states that have laws that allow local authorities to decide if a person can carry into a K-12 school. In West Virginia (My home state) the Local school Superintendent can give written permission to allow for a person to carry on school grounds and inside the K-12 buildings. Without that permission carry on K-12 property or buildings is illegal. Other states have such laws. As for a listing of such states I have not seen a list and Handgunlaw.us has not compiled a list of states that allow carry or must have permission to carry but there are others that have such laws. You would have to look at each states laws. Also remember that there could be administrative rules that forbid the carrying of firearms on K-12 property and when adopted Administrative Rules become law.

 

[Sam1911]

Something to remember is that because of the specific wording of the federal Gun Free School Zone Act, you may ONLY carry a firearm on school property in a state that has issued you a permit to do so. "Reciprocity" between your state and another isn't good enough to grant you carry permission on school property in that other state.

From wiki:

[18 U.S.C. § 922(q)(2)(A)] does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

...

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

[steve4102]

Something to remember is that because of the specific wording of the federal Gun Free School Zone Act, you may ONLY carry a firearm on school property in a state that has issued you a permit to do so. "Reciprocity" between your state and another isn't good enough to grant you carry permission on school property in that other state.

Actually the GFSZ Act is not only school property, but 1000 feet from school property while on "public" property.

 

[steve4102]

Don't have the actual Law Frank, but I do have some of these.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/08/judges_ruling_allows_open_carr.html

CLIO, MI – A judge has ruled that a Clio-area father can legally open carry his pistol inside of his daughter's elementary school despite a legal challenge from the school district.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2013/09/so_its_legal_to_carry_a_loaded.html

Can you legally open carry a firearm in Michigan?

Yes. There is no state law specifically stating that citizens can open carry firearms but there is no state law that expressly prohibits it. Therefore, this has been interpreted to mean that open carry is allowed in this state -- with a few exceptions.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...1/father-open-carry-daughter-school/31451735/

CLIO, Mich. — A Genesee County school district voted to appeal a judge’s ruling that says a father can carry his pistol openly inside his daughter’s elementary school. And the district superintendent said the Legislature needs to take action to remove ambiguity in the law that allows some to carry guns openly in school.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Michigan allows open carry by parents.

Sort of. Michigan lists schools as pistol free zones. But the law exempts anyone with a valid CPL from pistol free zones, with an allowance for open carry. It is not limited to parents.

Open carry in schools without a CPL is a big no-no.


Some reading:
http://www.michiganopencarry.org/faq#2

and a very simple PDF from the Michigan State police.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Frank,
here is the actual law.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(qa...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o


Quick Copy and Paste of the official wording

MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid
CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistolfree
zone. First offense is a state civil infraction.
The following is a list of the premises (excluding
parking lots) included in the statute:
 School or school property, except a parent or
legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a
child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
 Public or private day care center
 Sports arena or stadium
 A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of
liquor by the glass is the primary source of
income (does not apply to owner or employee of
the business).
 Any property or facility owned or operated by a
church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other
place of worship, unless authorized by the
presiding official
 An entertainment facility that has a seating
capacity of 2,500 or more
 A hospital
 A dormitory or classroom of a community college,
college, or university
 A casino (R 432.1212, MCL 432.202)
Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders
carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is
carrying a non-concealed pistol, the statute does
not apply. As noted above, the unlawful
premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to
persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person
with a valid CPL may carry a non-concealed pistol in the areas described in MCL 28.425o
and MCL 750.234d.

Also, there is an option for an enhanced CPL, which allows CC in all PFZs. However, it does require that you are affiliated with law enforcement. Volunteering to be on the Sheriff's posse fulfills that requirement. If my Sheriff gets re-elected, I'm going to see about volunteering myself.

 

[spazzymcgee]

The Smartgunlaws link is not only biased, but entirely incorrect about Delaware. CCW in schools is perfectly legal here with a CCDW permit. The ONLY source that you can trust is a state's code of law. I don't know what it's like everywhere else, but in Delaware there are very very few people that know the real laws. Everyone just regurgitates hearsay. Including police officers, senators, our attorney general, most FFL's, etc. Just something to keep in mind.